Section 15C.3 Referee Signals

Comments about this discussion:

Started 12 Apr 12:12

Not sure why we include only 9 signals in this section given none are unicycling specific and we use other hand signals. We should either just reference Apendix A of the FIBA rules or include all signals (at least all of the ones we would use). I also recommend creation of a signal for unmounted player.

Comment 15 Apr 12:38

Indeed, this is strange.

I would remove the table and only add our specific signals (with a reference to the proper Appendix of the FIBA rules). I would say that signals are needed for "15B.5.3 Unmounted Player" and for "15B.5.7 Ball on Floor".

In France, we do have a signal for unmounted player: one hand is low and facing the floor, and a move is made like one is sweeping the floor with the hand. I think it is quite understandable (we call it "jeu au sol" ou "jeu à terre", which can be translated as "play while on the floor").

We have no signal for making the ball roll on the floor.

Comment 03 May 11:03

I do not have the required skill to picture the signal for "play on floor" nor to find the appropriate violation name and signal description. Does anyone?

Comment 05 May 02:41

Maybe chatGPT can?

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZvAub5Zxu2rPMx35XXefMIJPBOQjJy88nOy

Not perfect yet, but I can still adjust later if you think I should pursue the option.

Comment 05 May 03:34

I think it's promising enough. You can pursue the IA option, thanks.

Possible improvements: I would put the hand lower, at the height of the hips. A double arrow could be added then to express the movement of the hand (horizontal, like sweeping the floor).

Optional improvements: use the same graphical conventions as in the FIBA rules (no face, perfect black skin, background colors).

Comment 05 May 03:40

I tried to find the image as example, and I found something similar.

For the hand : I asked already twice to have it lower, it gets slightly lower each time. I like the arrows idea.

I'll look for the proper eaxmple to give to AI. Not today, since I am at my max daily image generation ^^.

Comment 06 May 00:47

One issue with this signal is that it might be confused with visual counting (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/406168460116445845/ image 8). I think a signal could be the arm lowered towards the waist with the hand moving back and forth at the wrist (my ai image gen is not so great but kind of like https://chatgpt.com/c/6819a133-3670-8005-a665-b387e0d98420)

Comment 06 May 00:49

Sorry my signal is for rolling the ball on the floor

Comment 06 May 04:06

Joshua, I could not access your IA image.

Anyway, I realize that I did not describe well enough the signal for a contact of the ball with an unmounted player or an unmounted unicycle. The arm is straight, with the hand at the height of the hips (in front of the referee so that it is more visible). The palm of the hand is facing the floor and the sweeping is only made by moving the wrist, with the palm still facing the floor. Therefore, the signal is quite different from the "visible count" signal, where the hand is at the height of the shoulder and the elbow is moving but not the wrist.

Ideally, we should have two additional signals, one for rolling the ball on the floor, and one for being too close to a bent player picking up the ball. Since the rolling ball situation is also on the floor, we could use the same signal as the unmounted player/unicycle signal. Which situation arised among the two should be clear enough in the vast majority of cases.

Comment 06 May 20:43

This makes sense, I think it's sufficient for the two signals to vary in the motion of the hand If the player is on the floor that the hand moves parallel to the floor, which is your current signal, and for rolling the ball the hand can fold at the wrist (maybe this link works https://chatgpt.com/s/m_681a85280e5c81919b04683badc2fb69?). For the third signal of interfering with a player trying to pick up the ball how about both arms parallel pointing down to the side sort of like trying to pick up the ball e.g. https://chatgpt.com/s/m_681aba9cbdc48191a521bf841c910a10

Comment 08 May 15:37

I succeeded in seeing your images, and I agree with the three signals you propose.

Comment 09 May 12:23

I have refereed basketball on unis and feet. I agree that the visual counting signal is different from the "play while on floor" signal. Counting is slower too, because it happens each second.

I like the ai signal for reaching to pick up the ball off the ground!

For the signal for rolling the ball, it could be the same as a "traveling" hand signal, except with only using one hand. That could be signaled below the waist (near the floor).

Comment 09 May 12:49

I have an important request for this committee.

Most player-referees know the rules and how to blow the whistle, but not hand signals. it's okay to not know all of these hand signals. But often in tournaments with many languages, the referee will blow the whistle and look at the clock table, but the players don't know whether it's their ball or the other team's ball.

There are 2-3 most common signals that tell the players what happened and who's ball is it?

All "Foul" hand signals can be the same: make a fist, with straight arm up above the head.
Then point to the direction of who's ball it is, OR shout (white ball, or the team name and "ball)".
For non-foul violations, if the referee doesn't know the hand signal for rolling the ball, or playing while on floor, It's easy to do the general "violation" hand signal (open hand, with straight arm above the head), and then say with words what happened to the players. "Play while on floor."

Can we expect the referees to say in English the team name or color of jersey, of who's ball it is while pointing in that Team's direction?

Comment 10 May 15:04

Joshua Motenko's proposition for the signal for rolling the ball is also a nice one. I do not have any strong preference between the two Joshua's propositions.

I agree that referees should at least use the violation or foul signals, and the signal pointing to the direction of play. (I admit that I don't use much signals, even those.) But do you mean that the IUF rulebook should clearly state that at least those signals are mandatory?

Comment 10 May 16:04

The rulebook should say the referee must hand signal the direction or communicate with voice (in English?) which team is the owner of the ball after violations/calls are made.

too often the players on the court see a call is made and even if they don't understand it, they need to know if it's their ball or not so they can be ready for the next play.

Comment 09 Jun 06:30

What do you think of the following proposition, that would replace current "Section 15C.3 Referee Signals"?

Three additional signals are used in addition to the FIBA ones (Appendix A in their rules):

[Pictures of the three signals]

Referees should try to always use the appropriate signals, especially in international competitions. In any case, referees should at least use the appropriate signals for interrupting the game (one arm raised, with open palm for a violation or with a clenched fist for a foul), and then for indicating the direction of play (point in direction of play, arm parallel to sidelines).

We could even copy and paste the pictures corresponding to these three existing FIBA signals.

Any progress for the three IA pictures with a common visual style, if possible close to the FIBA style? (Ideally, the middle picture should be a female charcater, to match the alternation used in the FIBA rules.)

Comment 09 Jun 14:50

Josh Motenko, I strongly agree with establishing those basic hand signals (foul/violation, possession/direction) as mandatory after each whistle blown.
David, this verbiage is a great improvement.

Comment 29 Jun 13:42

In order to conclude this topic (in a few weeks at the latest), we need to have three images with the same visual style and of equivalent quality for the three new signals. Any volunteer with full propositions please? (I'm bad both at drawing and at prompting AI.)

Unmounted play: Straight arm, with the hand in front of the hips. The palm is facing the floor and simulates a sweeping (wrist move).

Rolling the ball on floor: One vertically rotating fist, below the waist. (I think this one is visually more different from the others than Joshua Ehrlich's proposition.)

Ball pick-up interference: Both arms parallel pointing down to the side, with hand palms facing each other.

These three items serve as reminders for the three signals we need, but also as proposals for the text that accompany the pictures (like in FIBA rules, a title above and a short description below the image).