Section 15B.5.10; Arm position while screening
Comments about this discussion:
Started
Background
The arm position during sreening is currently very restrictive.
Rule change proposal
Change
has each arm either bent along the chest or lying along the torso (typically with the hand holding the saddle) and
into
has each arm either bent along the chest, lying along the torso (typically with the hand holding the saddle), or vertical with the hands up, and
Justification
One might complain that, for example, screening while having hands up should be allowed. Or even with any position of the arms. One could even argue that twisting should be allowed as the cylinder is not modified by this action. I think only having hands up should be added to the allowed positions.
Comment
Isn't it clearer that the player is trying to place a screen with the original proposal? Hands up is a more common position while defending (no strong opinion here).
Comment
The original comment from Nikolay was the following:
The rule seems to be too specific. Why not hands up, for example? I can do a legal hands-up screen in pedestrian basketball. I believe FIBA does not use such specific language at all - FIBA talks the “language" of cylinder principle. Maybe the Rulebook should refer to FIBA rules for screens and add that idling into a player is not allowed (although it is anyway not allowed by FIBA rules - idling changes player’s cylinder)?
The ban of twisting (as far as screenings are concerned) directly contradicts to FIBA rules. FIBA does specifically allow players to turn within their cylinders. If a twisting player turns within their cylinder, this should be a legal move.
My opnion on that is the following:
The FIBA rules clearly state that the screening player must be stationary (at least during the contact). Moreover, a wheel contact can quickly break the balance. For those reasons, I think banning any non-vertical move of the wheel makes sense.
Concerning the position of the arms, having the hands up seems to me rather unusual during a screening, but I rarely watch basketball so I clearly may be wrong. What one wants is that the player is clearly not using their arms to push back the opponent.
In fact, Nikolay is the only one that I heard complaining about the arms/hands position during screening, and I slightly prefer not to modify the current rule. I would like to hear the opinion of the other members of the subcommittee, and in particular the ones that are regularly playing, or at least watching, on-foot basketball.
Comment
I am ok, with not modifying the current rule. Does it state if the rider can be hopping to stabilize? Should we talk about that?
Some people argue that in basketball, jumping while screening is not allowed. But in unicycling, hopping is a part of maintaining balance. What do you guys think?
Comment
Here is the current complete section 15b.5.10 Screenings:
Screening is only allowed if the player has each arm either bent along the chest or lying along the torso (typically with the hand holding the saddle) and keeps a stable position without changing the orientation of the wheel. Therefore, being in stand still or hopping while respecting these rules are allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned).
So hopping is explicitly allowed, and it is so because screening may last more than a fraction of second and hopping allows to maintain balance for a longer time. However, I think I stop hopping when the blocked player starts to move, probably to be in a clean legal guarding position if a contact occurs.
Comment
I think arm/hand location should be less restrictive. While it is unusual, the 'roll' is key to the pick and roll. If I am setting a screen, the defender is still attempting to get past the screen, but my team member is ready to deliver me a high pass, I should be able to raise my arms and catch the ball.
The only arm/hand restrictions I would feel strongly about here are the obvious ones of not extending past my vertical cylinder.
Regarding hopping, yes, I agree current verbiage must remain to allow hopping.
Regarding spinning, I think that current verbiage is sufficient.
Comment
The only arm position restriction for a screener should be - they don't extend their elbows or arms wider than their shoulders to make contact with the defender they are screening.
Hands up should be allowed.
Comment
Thank you both for your input. Here is a proposition taking into account your remarks. Feel free to comment on it, especially (but not only) concerning the quality of English.
Previous wording:
Screening is only allowed if the player has each arm either bent along the chest or lying along the torso (typically with the hand holding the saddle) and keeps a stable position without changing the orientation of the wheel. Therefore, being in stand still or hopping while respecting these rules are allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned).
New wording:
Screening is only allowed if the player does not extend their elbows and arms wider than their shoulders and keeps a stable position without changing the orientation of the wheel. Therefore, usual screening positions such as having each arm either bent along the chest or lying along the torso (typically with the hand holding the saddle) are allowed, but so is having the arms vertical with the hands up. Also, being in stand still or hopping while respecting these rules are allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned).
Comment
This looks great, David. Thank you.
Comment
The FIBA rules clearly state that
"the player who is screening an opponent [must have] both feet on the court when contact [occurs]"
Our new wording clearly implies that hopping is allowed when being in a screening position, but it is not clear whether being airborne is legal when contact occurs.
On the one hand, it would be cleaner and closer to on-foot basketball if one requires the contact to happen while not hopping. On the other hand, it might be sometimes difficult for the screening player to predict the moment of contact in order to stop hopping.
Personally, I prefer if the contact is required to happen while not hopping. (Also, it would somehow prevent screening while hopping via huge jumps, of which I'm not in favor while screening.)
In any case, I think we need to further clarify the rule. Please give your opinion and possibly a tentative clarification sentence.
Comment
I agree with Francois, hopping is a part of maintaining balance. I believe hopping should be allowed and equivalent to a standstill during a screen.
David, by saying 'hopping via huge jumps,' are you referring to height or horizontal distance? I don't see why vertical jumping should be outlawed (and actually would be a disadvantage if hopping too high so as to be unavailable for the next play). Horizontal hopping should considered a moving screen.
Comment
I was referring to height. (I agree with you that horizontal hopping should be considered as a moving screen and hence illegal.)
High jumps instead of small stability hopping is similar for me as moving actively the arms while screening, which seems to me unusual (but I may be wrong as I rarely watch pedestrian basketball games). More importantly, screening is a source of contact, and there might be a security issue as well with high jumps. Also, preventing high jumps, or even preventing any jump at the time of the impact might simplify the job of the referee (I admit this is not a very good reason).
Maybe just qualifying the hopping might be enough. What do you think of this sentence as a replacement for the last sentence:
Also, being in stillstand or making a small stability hopping while respecting these rules are allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned).
Comment
I'm not inclined to clarify since making a small stability hopping is not a particularly clear statement (what counts as small). I don't think that hopping higher is advantageous but I would only comment on horizontal movement being forbidden.
Although the FIBA rules state both feet on the ground, this is not really applicable to our rules unless we require being in a stillstand, here I think we should prefer to have screening be a part of the game by allowing hopping rather than trying to match fiba rules (since you would need to setup into a stillstand early enough for the defender to notice and stay in the stillstand through contact.
Comment
For me, horizontal moves are already ruled out by keeps a stable position.
Ideally, I really would like to convey the idea that stillstand is the norm but that average unicyclists are allowed to use hopping to keep a stable position. Another proposal then:
Also, being in stillstand while respecting these rules is allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned). In this context, the referees may tolerate players keeping their stability by hopping.
Comment
I'm not sure we should want to convey the idea that stillstand is the norm vs hopping.
Comment
As we are still speaking about screening, I think the idea behind is move to a position of interest and then "stop moving" to make it a legal screen, to do so, I think still-stand should be the norms, are you could also be trully vertical by hoping, but it will be really hard for the referee to identify between a small vertical hop from someone sliding and hoping at the same time.
I would maybe modify it like that :
"Also, being in stillstand while respecting these rules is allowed, while idling and twisting are not (as far as screenings are concerned). In this context, the referees may tolerate players keeping their stability by vertically hopping.
Comment
Thank you Gabriel for your point of view and for this proposition.
Joshua (and the others), would you agree about it or do you have another proposition you would like to share?