29 class in 10k race
Comments about this discussion:
Started
I hadn't taken up this discussion that I launched 2 years ago
The arguments are in the previous discussion. Here's a summary of the arguments.
Disadvantages: more medals, getting out of the standard/illimited dichotomy (since it requires making 3 categories).
Advantages: Generally speaking, the gap in speed (and practice) between the standard 24“ and the G36” has become very wide. Many competitors don't have a G36“ (for many reasons: it's expensive, it's difficult, it's scary, there's no point...) and still don't enjoy racing in a standard 24”.
The creation of a 29” category is an intermediary category between the 2 existing ones, and it's a category that already brings together many competitors over long distances.
The creation of a 29” category for the 10km would also facilitate the starting order. Today, in the unlimited class, it's common for G36“ and ungeared 26” or 29" to be involuntarily mixed in the same wave, which is of no interest to competitors and can cause interference at the start.
The 10 km is the oldest fixed-distance race and the “easiest” to organize. The subject was touched on in the discussion on time trials. I thought it was time to create this separate discussion.
In the event that we agree to create a 29” category for the 10km, I would suggest to remove the ungeared medals for the 10km. We could discuss this in a dedicated discussion.
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I do not support removing 10k ungeared as a solution to this. In the US at least, it is quite common for distance riders who do not ride geared to race on a 36” for all distance races. If I come to a competition after such a change, I would be strongly incentivized to bring an additional unicycle (which i do not already own) specifically to compete in 10k.
I can see the reason for preference towards a 29” racing standard if the goal is to provide a level playing field and reduce cost for competitors, as they are easier to transport and cheaper to purchase. But Unlimited Ungeared has substantial pre-race strategy that would be lost with a shift to 29” standard. It would be rare for any crank length other than 100mm to be advantageous in a 10k.
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On the one hand, I wonder a bit whether we really need more differentiated classes - in unicycling we generally only have a comparatively small starter field anyway and every additional class will further reduce the size of the other classes. On the other hand, I can understand very well that it is somehow strange to have a standard class that is the 29er class for almost all road races, but the 24er class for the 10 km. Actually, the 24er class is clearly the exception here - but I'm very happy about this exception, as it gives track riders the opportunity to take part in the road races as well. Nevertheless, I wouldn't consider it sensible to offer other disciplines in the 24 class that go beyond the 10km and, as already written in the other discussion, I am also extremely skeptical about whether it would really make sense to include the 24 class in the rules for short time trails.
So overall, it would probably be most reasonable to have a 29er class and an unlimited class everywhere and to have the 24er class for criterium and 10 km as a addition.
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I disagree with this.
As someone who races both standard 24 and standard 29, I quite like the two wheel sizes. It allows me, as a long distance rider, to race against people who mainly do track racing, because of the overlap in wheel size and distance. By bringing the 29" standard to the 10km you dilute the standard class. The 24" class has history in the 10km, the 29" doesn't.
The unlimited ungeared (essentially 36 standard class) is, as Tim said, what many distance riders have as their primary unicycle.
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> By bringing the 29" standard to the 10km you dilute the standard class.
That's what I mean when I wrote "in unicycling we generally only have a comparatively small starter field anyway and every additional class will further reduce the size of the other classes". And that would also be my main concern if we were to introduce more classes.
> The unlimited ungeared (essentially 36 standard class) is, as Tim said, what many distance riders have as their primary unicycle.
If this is the case, however, I ask myself why the 29er class is the standard class in almost all disciplines and not a 36er class?
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I think some arguments for standard 29” and unlimited ungeared are similar (cost controlled competition), but others are not. Standard racers probably appreciate that at the starting line they are on very equal footing (aside from handlebars, there is very little you can do to gain an advantage in equipment). Unlimited riders tend to want to ride the best configuration they can make for a course (highest gain ratio they can ride in the conditions).
I think 24” standard is quite well liked for its history and for giving serious track racers a different race on the same unicycle. But for marathon distance, the number of riders who like spending that much quality time with their saddle goes down significantly, so a faster machine is more appropriate to get a race of similar character. Additionally, logistically it requires a longer time slot if you were to hold a 24” marathon, for what i believe would be rather low turnout.
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> I think some arguments for standard 29” and unlimited ungeared are similar (cost controlled competition), but others are not.
But at the end of the day, you can do practically everything in the 29er class that is possible with unlimited ungeared - the only difference in terms of the rules is the wheel size. Or am I missing something here? From a purely technical point of view, both groups are regulated and standardized in practically the same way with different wheel sizes.
> I think 24” standard is quite well liked for its history and for giving serious track racers a different race on the same unicycle. But for marathon distance, the number of riders who like spending that much quality time with their saddle goes down significantly, so a faster machine is more appropriate to get a race of similar character. Additionally, logistically it requires a longer time slot if you were to hold a 24” marathon, for what i believe would be rather low turnout.
But the current situation is that the 24 class only exists for 10 km and Criterium - and I would also be against adding it for longer distances. But that's not the point here, it's about the 29er class for the 10 km, which doesn't exist yet.
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I do not agree that you can do practically everything in 29er that you can in unlimited ungeared. While racing Unlimited Ungeared, control of high gain ratio unicycles and power is tested much more directly. As an example, if a marathon starts with a steep uphill the short crank rider may have to exert substantially more energy in order to get to the top, but that may pay off later in the race. This consideration is not present when you are all gain limited at a relatively low gain ratio.
Unlimited ungeared is regulated differently by virtue of having unlimited crank length. We have current high level racers that choose cranks as short as 89mm on a 36”. I personally believe the appeal of Unlimted is that you get to ride the configuration you think gets you from start to finish in the fastest time possible, and you cannot have that experience on a standardized unicycle
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That wasn't what I meant either - of course, one unicycle or the other may be more suitable depending on the curse profile. Of course, different crank lengths make more of a difference the bigger the wheel. But even on a 29er unicycle, the shortest possible cranks are certainly not always the best choice.
But what I actually meant is that from a technical point of view, the specifications/restrictions for the unicycles in the 29er class and the Unlimited class are basically the same - except for the different wheel diameters. The crank length is not regulated in either class and no gearing may be used in either class. So basically, both are regulated/standardized to the same extent.
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My bad, I was mistaken about how standard 29" works. I had my wires crossed with standard 20" which has a crank restriction of 100mm. I should have reviewed the rule more closely. I genuinely thought based on the use of the term "standard" that it was an attempt to produce a standard style race where everyone is effectively on similar machines.
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I understand that some may think that doing road races of different lengths with different wheel sizes can be interesting and can reward different competitors, but road racers often have a preferred wheel size and it's possible to do races with sufficiently different race formats to make them attractive even without changing the wheel size. I think it's interesting that a competitor who wants to race on the road can come to the UNICON or to another event with just a standard 29”.
I agree with Jan that 24” in the 10km and criterium should remain the exception.
I think the addition of a 29“ category could satisfy those who race marathon (or longer races) in 29” and race the 10km in 24“ by default (or who race the 10km in 29” or simply don't race it...). Adding a 29“ category could also attract muni riders (in a similar way to the 24” category with athletics). If there's a 29” category at the next UNICON and people don't like it, we can always go back. But forcing people to choose between 24” and unlimited doesn't seem to me to be the right solution if it's just based on conservatism.
> But Unlimited Ungeared has substantial pre-race strategy that would be lost with a shift to 29” standard.
I'd put in a sentence about the “unlimited ungeared award” to reassure people who think there are too many awards. And in any case, if the majority disagrees with the addition of a 29” category on the 10km, I wouldn't propose deleting the unlimited ungeared award.
But today, the fastest standard 29” racers are almost always faster than the fastest unlimited ungeared racers (in all road races). Just look at the results of the last two UNICONs. The reason is that there are more top-level competitors in the 29” category.
There really can be no pre-race strategy in this category. Rewards are provided for the top 3 only if there are at least 5 geared competitors (per gender) who started the race. If there are 4 geared competitors and 100 ungeared, there will be no unlimited ungeared awards.
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As I said, I can well imagine having a uniform standard class for all road races and also the 24 class for the short races (10km and Criterium). But I would like to take up the comment from above once again:
>> The unlimited ungeared (essentially 36 standard class) is, as Tim said, what many distance riders have as their primary unicycle.
> If this is the case, however, I ask myself why the 29er class is the standard class in almost all disciplines and not a 36er class?
In my opinion, the 29er class and a possible 36er ungeard class are very similar in terms of the degree of standardization - in both cases there would only be a limit to the maximum wheel diameter. If it is indeed the case that for many road riders the 36er ungeard is the standard unicycle, then I wonder why this is not the standard class? Especially if unlimited ungeard awards are provided. Wouldn't this practically create two “standard” classes? Wouldn't it be much more consistent to either remove the unlimited ungeard awards and make the 29er class the only standard class or to increase the maximum wheel diameter in the standard class so that there is a 36er standard unicycle class and an unlimited class?
But if 29er class unicycles are the standard, then I would definitely leave the 29er class as the standard. However, I still take a critical view of Unlimited ungeard awards, as they indirectly create another standard class. If we want to set standards, then they should be as clear as possible.
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I think the addition of a 29“ category could satisfy those who race marathon (or longer races) in 29” and race the 10km in 24“ by default (or who race the 10km in 29” or simply don't race it...).
I'm one of those people. Although I can't speak for everyone, I really like racing both standard wheel sizes. I get to race people (ie track specialists) I don't normally race when I compete on 29" standard.
It's also unique because male and female, 25yr olds and 13yr olds are very close together in competitiveness. The 29" standard tends to favour the senior men.
Adding a 29“ category could also attract muni riders (in a similar way to the 24” category with athletics). If there's a 29” category at the next UNICON and people don't like it, we can always go back. But forcing people to choose between 24” and unlimited doesn't seem to me to be the right solution if it's just based on conservatism.
If a 29" standard 10km was added, then you would be forcing people to choose between 24" standard and 29" standard.
I take your point about 29" Muni riders, but it's easier to carry a spare 24" wheelset (or borrow one!) that fits a 29" frame, than to compete in the unlimited ungeared category when it is not their primary discipline. If it is, then they are bringing a 36" wheelset anyway.
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In my opinion, the 29er class and a possible 36er ungeard class are very similar in terms of the degree of standardization - in both cases there would only be a limit to the maximum wheel diameter. If it is indeed the case that for many road riders the 36er ungeard is the standard unicycle, then I wonder why this is not the standard class? Especially if unlimited ungeard awards are provided. Wouldn't this practically create two “standard” classes? Wouldn't it be much more consistent to either remove the unlimited ungeard awards and make the 29er class the only standard class or to increase the maximum wheel diameter in the standard class so that there is a 36er standard unicycle class and an unlimited class?
I think the 29" has a few advantages- it is a bike industry standard, so we have a choice of tyres/rims. It is much easier to travel with than a 36". Not all distance riders consider the 36" the optimum size. On our unitours- I almost exclusively use a 29'er. It's more versatile and reliable than a 36".
But if 29er class unicycles are the standard, then I would definitely leave the 29er class as the standard. However, I still take a critical view of Unlimited ungeard awards, as they indirectly create another standard class. If we want to set standards, then they should be as clear as possible.
Although 36" has been around for a while- the only reason it's popular is because it is the largest production wheel size with a pneumatic tyre. For a long time, the fastest 100 mile record was set on a 42" solid rubber tyre. There is also talk of a bike industry 32" standard. We may end up with too many options.
I used to think unlimited-ungeared was the optimal way to differentiate equipment in terms of speed/fairness, but with the rise of the 29" standard class I don't feel strongly about this category. There are many 36" ungeared riders who do though...not everyone can afford a Schlumpf hub, or want to ride 29" standard.
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A good Muni setup is very unpleasant to do substantial road miles on. I would never ride a marathon on the tire i ride muni on. I think it has far less capacity to draw muni riders into the race.
To at least some degree, i think there is a cultural divide causing some of the disagreement. In the past 3 NAUCC marathons we had 2 total competitors choose a 29” ungeared unicycle. I believe one is an example of a very young competitor and another is a muni rider choosing to ride the marathon. So from a US perspective the idea of changing the structure towards 29” standard is a rule that doesn’t fit with what our competitors seem to prefer.
I don’t have any data to support it (as far as i know, none exists), but I do tend to agree with Ken that there is a good chance it would draw people away from 24” at probably a similar rate as the people it would draw from unlimited ungeared.
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I look on Unicon as a Convention and Championships. For Majority of riders it should be a Convention. Those few who focus on championships should adjust their equipment.
I am against championships with few categories that are run at the same time. We already have 10k (24") standard and 10k unlimited categories, and usually those competitions are run simultaneously. If there is a strong rider who has a capacity to win in both categories, he(she) cannot participate in both categories, letting a medal to a weaker rider in other category.
Adding another class (10k 29") only exaggerates this problem.
I would keep 10k standard category without change. It is a popular event across track competitors. 29" riders can bring 24" wheel if they want to participate in this category.
For the unlimited ungeared awards, I was never in favor of them. For me it should be simply: standard class and unlimited (everything). Those riders who ride 36 ungeared should just accept that they are not as strong as those on G36 unicycles. If the best G36 riders would race on ungeared 36 unicycles, it would be a good proof.
I didn't like the situation at uphill race in Grenoble where Standard class riders were not classified together with unlimited riders. (Unlimited is everything). I didn't accept a second place in unlimited category knowing that there were 2 better riders, one in unlimited and one in standard category.
The Unicons are too much complicated for organizers. We are struggling to find future organizers.
Make less categories, less medals, less insignificant champions, and more of a convention!
I checked statistics of participation in road racing at Unicon 21 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UIM8EDyb06ISq8UdIc72BLL8YoVZtwt46knUg5GIKc8/edit?usp=sharing)
observations:
Significant majority of unlimited riders maintain in the unlimited category across all road races.
About 50% of riders on 50k stardard has competed in 10k standard (they had to bring 24 and 29 inch wheels). The 50k standard competition is half the size of 10k standard.
Only 10% of 10k standard riders competed in longer distances.
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I think on the question of 29 vs. 36 ungeard as standrad class, the tendency is towards 29, however in the US the 36 ungeard seems to be much stronger than in other parts of the world. I am convinced that we as the IUF should set a clear line here in order to prevent the classes from becoming too fragmented. I would therefore even go so far as to suggest removing the unlimited ungeard awards from the rulebook as a matter of principle and instead giving the organizers the freedom (without explicitly mentioning this in the rulebook) to decide whether they want to award additional honors.
As for the actual question regarding the 29er class in the 10 km, I am still very torn. On the one hand, I think it would be an extreme shame if the existing classes were to become even more fragmented - which would definitely happen with a 29er class. On the other hand, it is of course a bit strange to have the 29er class as standard in the road races, but the 24er class in the races up to 10 km.
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"I would therefore even go so far as to suggest removing the unlimited ungeard awards from the rulebook as a matter of principle and instead giving the organizers the freedom (without explicitly mentioning this in the rulebook) to decide whether they want to award additional honors."
By doing that, you are basically deleting the unlimited-ungeared category. If it's not in the rulebook, it's not taken seriously, and will be inferior to recognised categories. An organiser with 'freedom to decide' means it won't happen.
As for the actual question regarding the 29er class in the 10 km, I am still very torn. On the one hand, I think it would be an extreme shame if the existing classes were to become even more fragmented - which would definitely happen with a 29er class. On the other hand, it is of course a bit strange to have the 29er class as standard in the road races, but the 24er class in the races up to 10 km
I don't see it as strange. A 10km race is very short for a 29", but a really fun distance for a 24". On a 29" it's over before your even know it. A 30min race has more time to develop than a 20min race.
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"Those riders who ride 36 ungeared should just accept that they are not as strong as those on G36 unicycles.
The best riders usually have the best equipment, but we know that for certain lengths of time those hubs were unavailable.
There is still a spin-speed vs power differential between ungeared and geared 36". I can think of riders who will be relatively better at one than the other.
If the best G36 riders would race on ungeared 36 unicycles, it would be a good proof."
The only way to find out is to lay down your arms and go ungeared :-)
There are even times to compare for 10km and Marathon from 2006 and earlier
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As an unlimited 10km rider, I don't see a problem with diluting the competition into 3 categories (24/29/unlimited), because:
- it leaves it up to each participant to choose the category they prefer (for me this would increase interest in the 10km in general, with even more participants)
- I think that if there is a 29“ incentive on the 10km, there will be more 29” competitors on the marathon (and one day more G36" competitors... my unicycle trickle-down theory). I completely understand if you don't agree, but I believe it =)
- for the unlimited start order, there would no longer be any competitors with ungeared 26" or 29" in the unlimited start.
But it would certainly be a major change with a difficult return. Standard competitors who don't race track and field will certainly move from 24“ to 29”, which could leave track and field competitors among themselves on the 24" category.
There are different visions:
- for tracks specialists, the current 10km format with waves doesn't pose a problem and there's more of a desire to keep the existing
- for road race specialists who race in standard 24" class, in Europe, a large proportion would prefer to race the 10k in 29” (you can believe me or not, I have no personal interest in asserting this kind of thing if it's not true).
- for the fastest unlimiteds, the current format needs to be reviewed: wave starts are often unfair, there's not much point in going head-to-head over a short distance, and it's a bit dangerous. A time trial would be an interesting format for a short-distance road race. The fixed distance of 10km is good for world records, but a free short distance could also be suitable.
- among the others competitors, there are those who race with their only unicycle or their favourite unicycle, dozens of them doing the 10km on an ungeared 26/27,5/29/32/36. The fastest of them may be awarded the fastest ungeared medal...
I'm more in favor of introducing a 29“ category and seeing how the participants break down into the different categories, but perhaps one solution is to do the 10km for the 24” and another road race (ideally a time trial) for the 29" and unlimited, on another day.
In this way, it would be possible to :
- take part in both the 24" 10km and the other 29" or unlimited road race
- use the same course (10km) or different courses
- keep the historic 24" 10km race
But in terms of organization, it's heavier, isn't it? Is it worth making the 10km 24" a sanctuary?
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> it leaves it up to each participant to choose the category they prefer (for me this would increase interest in the 10km in general, with even more participants)
This is the point that I doubt the most. I rather believe that at the moment pretty much everyone who is interested in a road race is already taking part in the 10 km and that a division into three classes would inevitably lead to the other classes becoming smaller. You mention this yourself below ("for road race specialists who race in standard 24" class, in Europe, a large proportion would prefer to race the 10k in 29”) - this would definitely shrink the 24" class and also make it less interesting for track riders, as only the same people would be competing as in 800 m.
> but perhaps one solution is to do the 10km for the 24” and another road race (ideally a time trial) for the 29" and unlimited, on another day.
I think that would be an interesting/the most interesting solution - but it will probably never be implemented if we introduce another class (29") for the 10 km fixed distance races now. The organizers would then probably always choose the 10 km fixed distance option for all classes.