Best trick instand of last trick
Comments about this discussion:
Started
I have this opinion already for a few years but I was never in the rulebook so lets drop it now.
In flatland we all know we have a best trick and not a last trick. what means you will do a trick you havent done in your run. or if you did it in your run it will score lower. but.. why dont we have this in street? I think its a good add to also do it there to get to see the best of the best and push the riders to show something different/news or of course push yourself to commit because in comps commiting is easier (for most of us then)
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I have a few questions to your discussion because I think i dont get the point you are making yet.
First of all Flatland has last trick and Street has best Trick.
So my question is. Do you want last tricks in Street or do you want lower scores for the best tricks if riders already did it in their run?
If second I think that makes sense and I also see that judges are already giving lower scores for already seen tricks. There is a possibility to put this into the variety penalty that could see a feature in the upcoming rulebook
If I got your take wrong please explain again :D
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Hey,
Yeah well the name doesnt mather but I indeed mean that you will score lower if you already did a trick in your run. Because then its defently not your best trick (in my eyes). atm the judges dont give lower points for a trick they already saw. Because thats not in the rules yet. (asked to ian last winter euc when judging myself) I geuss putting a lower variety then should be fine. or if anyone els has a great idea let me know.
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Okay I understand. I would agree with you that lower scores for a trick already seen in the run should give less points. I think the penalty already in discussion could be a solution tbh. Because that is something that is in the discussion already and then we could fix two things at the same time
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If riders do a best trick they have already shown in the run, they already get a penalty. In difficulty. Because that best trick was easier than it could have been (if they were able to land it in their run)
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I agree that a trick should be scored lower if it's been used in a run.
However, I disagree with you Ian. I don't think the current rules state that. If solely judging difficulty, a trick does not become easier because you have already landed it. It's still a difficult trick, whether you land it once or twice. It only shows that you got the trick consistent. That does not take away from its difficulty.
So I think we need a sentence in the penalty section. Maybe it could be added to the other proposal.
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Doing a trick in a Best Trick segment is easier than doing it in a run.
(Because you have more time to prepare and run up to that trick, and because you have multiple attempts)
And difficulty should be measured by the training time it takes an average rider to get to that riding level.
Learning more difficult tricks takes more training time, but getting tricks to a high consistency also takes more training time.
So a high consistency in a trick is absolutely comparable to a more difficult trick.
By doing a trick that they did in the run already, we know that those tricks are absolutely consistent for them, and that implies that they probably can do tricks with an even higher difficulty (but less consistency, because harder tricks take longer to get consistent).
So it's the implication of them doing a trick from their run, that let's us know that they either trained only those tricks for super long and have no other ones, which then shouldn't be penalized (because we want to judge on the average training time it would take to reach that level of difficulty/consistency) or they would have had an even more difficult one, that they didn't choose (which would have given them more points, being effectively the same as giving themselves a penalty)
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I think we have a different definition of difficulty, Ian. In my definition, a difficulty is an objective score that comes from the complexity of the movement, strength required, etc. and it means that it's always the same (at least within the same category of riders) - regardless of where and when I do a trick. I think this is how most sports operate actually - they often even assign a specific score to a move (e.g. figure skating).
Your definition seems to relate to "personal" or "circumstantial" difficulty. I'm not sure whether I would want to use this as a basis for the rulebook as it can potentially vary from person to person, e.g. most people will find it more difficult to do a trick in a run because it means they need to do several tricks and have time pressure, but maybe some get into a flow state where they find it easier to ride for a longer time uninterrupted and can build up to a trick.
Not sure if that makes sense?
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I do think of difficulty as an objective score.
But we need measurement for difficulty. And the only fair one I can think of is the time it would take 'the average rider' to reach that riding level.
That's also the whole reason we have a variety score. To fairly judge riders who use all their training time to go into one specific trick type, against riders who choose to train multiple trick types (and therefore probably won't reach the same peak difficulty level)
Back to topic:
Do we agree, that one specific trick done in a run or as a best trick should award the same difficulty score?
(if it is only done in one of those)
Do we also agree, that for most riders, doing a trick in a run (under pressure and with basically only one chance to land it) feels harder to land?
(there might be some cases where this is not the case, but let's talk majority here)
So doing a trick in a run feels harder to land than as a best trick but does not give a higher difficulty score, because the felt difficulty is subjective here.
The tricks riders choose to include in their run are therefore tricks that they can do even with this added subjective difficulty.
It can be assumed, that they know harder tricks, that they did not include in the run because the added subjective difficulty would lead to them failing it or because they need multiple attempts to work up to landing it.
These are the tricks, that we expect to see as best tricks.
So if a rider chooses to do a best trick, that they already did in their run, it can be assumed, that that trick is not their peak difficulty level and they could have picked a harder trick (giving them a higher best trick score). This is what I mean by implying a penalty.
Let's go for an example:
A rider does a ledge grind in their run because they know they can land it first try.
If they do the same ledge grind also as best trick, they do not get penalized for it. Why?
Because as best trick gives a rider multiple attempts to land one trick, they might have went for ledge grind 180twist out which is harder and usually takes them a couple tries to work up to and land.
By choosing to do the ledge grind again, they are giving themselves a penalty already because every trick they can do in their run first try is not their peak riding level and they could have picked a higher scoring trick instead, giving up points.
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Yes, I would agree that they should get the same difficulty score in a run or in a last trick as long as it's shown only once.
I don't agree with assuming that riders can do harder tricks than the ones they showed in the run (does certainly not apply to me haha). I don't like implying as a judging concept. I believe in judging what you actually can see, not the riders potential ability (or what you know of them outside their run). I think you can only judge what you see. So if a rider shows a grind as a best trick that has not lower difficulty than showing it in a run.
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Consequently, if you want them to get a lower score for the same trick, it needs to be specifically stated.
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Someone my point is not coming across I think.
I do not want to give them a lower score if a trick is done as a best trick. The lower difficulty of a trick being done as a best trick is subjectively felt but should not be considered for judging, because that added subjective difficulty does not come from the trick, but from the circumstances it is being done in.
So I do not want to give riders a lower difficulty score for the same trick. I want to give them the score the trick awards and would have awarded in a run too.
But they did that trick in their run already
-> meaning they can do it easily and consistently first try
-> so it cannot be their peak riding level (unless they stopped learning new tricks completely and just got everything they can do fully consistent now)
-> so they threw away points by doing a lower scoring trick
-> the score lost through that decision is equivalent to a penalty, so if we penalize it on top, that decision gets punished twice
// I don't agree with assuming that riders can do harder tricks than the ones they showed in the run (does certainly not apply to me haha).
So you do your hardest tricks in your run? Have you got all your hardest tricks fully consistent first try? I find that hard to believe.
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Oh you want to give them the same score? Interesting. So you don't mind that people would be doing a really good trick twice and get lots of points for it?
I think yes - I used to do my subjectively felt hardest tricks in a run. Probably because I didn't have a whole lot of street tricks anyways. I only had a few and they were pretty consistent. Tricks that I kept for the end were usually awkward to get to, e.g. somewhere I can't jump up, or take a long time to set up, where I would lose lots of time in the run - but they felt easier than quite a few tricks in the run. Exception were the ones I tried after already landing the required amount of tricks for best trick. To be fair, that is changing though as I am now actually practising street.
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To be honest, I don't actually mind whether it gets a penalty or not. Just prepare a proposal and I'll vote for it. I just don't like the argument of implied judging.
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haha and I'm not even a voting member - so just go ahead :D
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I do not mind riders doing a really good trick twice, because I assume there was an even better trick for best trick that they did not choose to do.
No need for a proposal. The current rules do not state a penalty, and I don't want to introduce one. A proposal should be started by someone who wants to see a penalty for doing tricks twice.
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So do I understand right that if you do the same trick in the run as in the best trick it doesnt mather for the score? I am a bid confused.
tbh I think thats a bid wierd because yeah what you said Ian then its not your best best trick in my eyes.