3D.14 Special Marathon Events
Comments about this discussion:
Started
As I mentioned in the mass start discussion, I'm not sure what the current content of this section adds, since the start options described in this section are described in 3D.10.3 section.
As for timing, it's always brutto time that's used for WRs anyway. Netto time is almost never used for rankings, but can be given as an indication (interesting for amateurs who cross the start line 5 minutes after the starting signal).
An important element not covered in this section is a mass start with non-unicyclists. I think it's important to clarify this situation.
If the start is grouped with cyclists or rollerbladers (or any other sport faster than unicycling), I don't think it should be possible to homologate a unicycle road race WR. I don't think we should end up with WR that can only be beaten in mass starts with non-unicyclists.
Comment
In Bezug auf die aktuellen Regel, fügt Abschnitt 3D.14 hinzu, dass unterschieldiche Klassen gemeinsam starten können - das lässt die aktuelle Regel 3D.10 nicht explizit zu.
Ich glaube der Timing Aspekt ist aktuell auch nirgendwo wirklich geregelt - also insbesondere die Frage, welche Zeit ist die offizielle Zeit in einem Rennen.
> An important element not covered in this section is a mass start with non-unicyclists. I think it's important to clarify this situation.
I think this is an extremely important point, which has already been addressed in the other discussion on the mass start. As I already wrote there unicycle marathon events are only possible in Germany if they are part of other marathon events. Since it is already extremely difficult to find organizers who allow unicyclists, there would probably be no more unicycle marathon events in Germany if a separate start would be necessary. In Germany, unicycle marathon events have always been dependent on other events and races have only ever been possible together with other sports such as inline skating.
And in the end, it's not just about the start, but in principle about a completely separate race, as the events are often not held as point-to-point races, but on a closed course that has to be ridden several times. A mix-up with non-unicyclists can only be prevented if the entire race is held exclusively with unicyclists.
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Yes, you're right, the mass start with a single start is not currently provided for in the rules.
I agree that it would be preferable for it to be in the 3D.10.3 rules rather than as an exception.
For timing, a Timing section should probably be created, which would include the current 3D.16 section on accuracy of results.
For the grouped start with non-unicyclists, can you clarify the points that are causing problems? I'm only thinking of the German marathon championships on the closed car track (a lap is over 5km long). It seems possible to delay the start by a few minutes, but of course that means managing 2 waves and therefore 2 start times, which is a bit more complicated. Do you know if this has already been discussed with the organizers? Are there any other races in Germany organized in the same way?
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> For timing, a Timing section should probably be created, which would include the current 3D.16 section on accuracy of results.
Would be an option, although I would actually rather rename section 3D.16, as it actually only deals with the publication of results and the current name is therefore somewhat misleading. In my opinion, however, the whole issue of timing would then be separate from the publication of results, which is why I would keep the rules separate.
> Do you know if this has already been discussed with the organizers? Are there any other races in Germany organized in the same way?
In the past, practically all marathon events in Germany were organized according to the same principle as last year's German Championships - i.e. unicyclists start together with other similarly fast sport disciplines. Many organizers generally reject the participation of unicyclists, but unfortunately they don't usually say exactly why. In any case, it is quite difficult to find an organizer who includes unicyclists in the competition program. The requirement is usually that the unicyclists start together with other sports.
Even if you find an organizer who agrees to a slightly staggered start, the subsequent race still takes place together with the other disciplines - especially in races that are run over a relatively short course with many laps. However, this is often the case as it is too expensive and complex for the organizers to close a lot of public roads. The organizers therefore try to concentrate on a comparatively compact course or switch to courses that are closed anyway (as was the case at last year's championship).
But what effect does it have to separate the start if all the athletes mix again on the course anyway?
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> But what effect does it have to separate the start if all the athletes mix again on the course anyway?
If the start is grouped with non-unicyclists, a unicyclist can take drafting from a non-unicyclist competitor who is going much faster than he would if there were only unicyclists.
If you start the unicyclists 2-3 minutes later, it becomes impossible to catch the drafting of a faster non-unicyclist competitor at the start, and the gap will widen. Unicyclists will only catch up with slower nonunicyclists, who won't be able to help them. Moreover, the earlier they catch up, the greater the speed gap and the less they'll be able to help each other. It's conceivable that a non-unicyclist competitor might wait to be caught up before helping a unicyclist, but I think it would be enough to specify that this behavior is not permitted, without having to put marshals all over the course. If it takes you 2-3 minutes longer to do the first lap than the following ones, that's obvious.
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I doubt that you could really follow someone who is much faster by drafting - but that may be a question of the definition of much faster. Of course there is no question that it is more difficult to draft behind someone if the starts are staggered, that's not my point at all, my point is the core of this rule: If it should not be allowed in principle to ride behind a non-unicyclist, then we have to be so honest and say that mixed races become de facto impossible. We have no influence on who rides how fast in a race and in a race on a relatively short circuit, there will always be a mix of unicyclists and non-unicyclists in mixed races.
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I could have left out the word “much”, because it's not so much the difference in speed as the difference in final performance that can be enormous.
The advantage of following a faster non-unicycling competitor is reduced to nothing if the starts are staggered.
Two competitors from 2 different disciplines who are going at roughly the same speed are not likely to meet in the event of a staggered starts.
The fact that competitors from different disciplines mix is not a problem in most cases.
The longer the lap, the lower the risk of 2 competitors drafting each other.
A concrete example: a marathon (42.195km) is organized on a 5.8km lap. The fastest competitors take 10 minutes to complete a lap. There are speed skaters and unicyclists, you make 2 starts 5 minutes apart and there is no drafting problem between the 2 disciplines. If a competitor catches up by 5 minutes over 40 km, it's already a major difference in level, and there's little chance that the one who's caught up will be able to keep up with the one who's caught up by 5 minutes (and in the worst-case scenario, he may only be able to do so for the last 2 km). And if that competitor is able to take advantage of it for the last 2 km, he'd certainly be able to take advantage of it over the whole 42km in the event of a mass start.
For races with several laps, it's true that if the course is very small, there's more risk. Perhaps a minimum lap length should be considered for unicycle marathons (I'd say 3 km, which already seems very small to me). I'm not aware of any marathons organized on very small circuits, but I think this should be avoided in any case for unicycle races, where there is a great heterogeneity of level.
For me, mixing is not a problem if the starts are delayed by even 2 minutes.
Comment
I can absolutely follow your line of arguments - but for me the crucial point remains: If drafting between unicyclists and non-unicyclists is forbidden, then it's not enough just to postpone the start. Drafting may become extremely unlikely, but it is not impossible and must therefore still be regulated and supervised.
We cannot rule out that a non-unicyclist - for whatever reason, e.g. due to a defect - has a delay and then continues with unicyclists again. If this is not allowed, there must be rules and compliance with them must be monitored. In my opinion, simply relying on the start delay is no guarantee that drafting is really ruled out.
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You're right that staggered starts don't eliminate drafting 100%. But they are used in other sports like marathons (to separate men's and women's elite) or triathlons (to reduce drafting) as a simple and effective way to limit interactions between groups. In these disciplines, drafting is not always strictly forbidden, and when starts are intentionally separated, it's generally accepted that a small amount of interaction may still happen without leading to disqualification.
I see a short time gap at the start as a practical solution to reduce the risk of drafting between disciplines, while still allowing a shared race.
Since only Jan and I have contributed so far, I’d really appreciate hearing from other members. Do you think this is an issue we should address in the rules? And if so, would a small start delay be a fair and realistic approach?
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> In these disciplines, drafting is not always strictly forbidden, and when starts are intentionally separated, it's generally accepted that a small amount of interaction may still happen without leading to disqualification.
But I think these disciplines all have rules on drafting and also rules on how violations are punished and how drafting is monitored, right?
On the one hand, I can see that many marathon events (at least in Germany) can no longer be held according to IUF if staggered starts are required - but that's just the way it would be. More importantly, I think that if we introduce such a rule to prevent drafting, we also need rules on drafting itself. Otherwise, we will eventually run into the problem of a unicyclist riding behind a non-unicyclist and someone having to judge whether this was okay or not. But how is this assessment supposed to take place if we don't have any rules? We could only avoid these rules if no mixed races were allowed at all, because then the case would always be clear. But allowing mixed races but no drafting is simply not possible without further rules, in my opinion.
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Yes, you're right, there's absolutely nothing about drafting in the rulebook. I can propose a simple section with the definition of drafting, what is authorised and what is forbidden. Here's a proposal:
Drafting Rules for Road Races
1.Definition of drafting: Drafting is defined as riding in close proximity behind another rider or vehicle to reduce air resistance and benefit from their slipstream.
2.Permitted drafting: Drafting is allowed between unicyclists participating in the same race or category, unless otherwise specified in the race rules.
3.Forbidden drafting:
3.1.Drafting is not allowed behind:
Vehicles (lead or support),
Non-participants (e.g. cyclists on open roads),
Non-unicyclist participants (in mixed-discipline races).
3.2.Drafting is not allowed in Time Trial competition
3.3.Drafting between gender categories and wave starts:
In races where elite waves are separated by gender, drafting between gender categories is not explicitly forbidden. However, intentional tactics—such as a rider from an earlier wave waiting for or pacing a rider from a later wave—are not permitted and may result in disqualification.
4.Enforcement: Officials may evaluate such cases based on the timing, positioning, and behavior of the competitors.
Comment
I think your suggestion is a good starting point - however, as a rider and also as a judge, I would have no idea what is considered “close proximity” based on the first paragraph. So at what distance would I do something non-compliant as a rider? The definition seems perfectly logical to me, but it would be too general to disqualify or warn someone based on it. I think both riders and judges need to have some certainty about what is allowed and what is not allowed.
Paragraph 3.3 is critical to me - in a 10k with a mass start, drafting would be allowed among all riders, in a wave start it would be forbidden if someone from an earlier wave waits for someone from a later wave? I think I would just differentiate between two types of disciplines:
1. disciplines where drafting between unicyclists is allowed and
2. disciplines in which drafting is not allowed
Time trials fall under the second category, all other road races under the first. That would make the rule easy and clear in my oppinion.
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> I think your suggestion is a good starting point - however, as a rider and also as a judge, I would have no idea what is considered “close proximity” based on the first paragraph. So at what distance would I do something non-compliant as a rider? The definition seems perfectly logical to me, but it would be too general to disqualify or warn someone based on it. I think both riders and judges need to have some certainty about what is allowed and what is not allowed.
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Would the 5m front/back be for any form of drafting or just for drafting unicyclist behind unicyclist? I am not an expert in road racing, so I would take what the experts say when recommending distances. It would just be important to me that there is a value in the rules for both riders and judges that everyone can use as a guide.
The World Record Committee discussed whether it might be easier to judge distances in seconds rather than meters? I don't know how this is viewed here. But I think if you look for a fixed point, you can actually judge quite well how big the time gap between two riders is.
> But if it ever becomes a problem, maybe it's mentioned in the rules as unsportsmanlike behavior rather than a drafting rule.
Sounds like a good idea :)