Number of fouls
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
At the end of Section 15B.5.1, I propose to add the following text:
Should a game not be played in 4 periods of 10 minutes, the rules concerning the number of fouls shall be adapted as follows.
Number of personal fouls at which a player must leave the game:
- Game lasting 10 to 20 minutes: 3 fouls
- Game lasting 21 to 30 minutes: 4 fouls
- Game lasting 31 to 40 minutes: 5 fouls
Number of team fouls after which a team is in the team foul penalty situation:
- Game period lasting 5 to 6 minutes: 2 fouls
- Game period lasting 7 to 8 minutes: 3 fouls
- Game period lasting 9 to 10 minutes: 4 fouls
- Game period lasting 11 to 12 minutes: 5 fouls
- Game period lasting 13 to 15 minutes: 6 fouls
Tournament organizers are invited to set a maximum number of Technical, Unsportsmanlike and Disqualifying fouls that can be committed by a player before that player is excluded from the whole tournament.
Comment
I think this is too much details to have to follow for our tournament style. Games should be regular length OR 1 other option for a shorter game. Like game lasting 24 minutes.
In the shorter games personal fouls should never be less than 4. Team fouls should never be less than 4.
I've been working in sports for 25 years and I've never seen rules that make a player foul-out at 2 or 3 fouls, or a team get free throws at 3 team fouls.
Comment
> I think this is too much details to have to follow for our tournament style. Games should be regular length OR 1 other option for a shorter game. Like game lasting 24 minutes.
Remember that the rules are not made just for Basketball A at Unicon. They are supposed to define our sport and to be used (as much as possible/desired) in any unicycling event.
> I've never seen rules that make a player foul-out at 2 or 3 fouls, or a team get free throws at 3 team fouls.
Then I guess you were not present at Unicon 20 ;-) Players were excluded at the third personal foul for Basketball B, the first pools of Basketball A, and the pools of Basketball Junior. I don't remember anybody complaining.
These are the rules we use in France for over a decade. In practice, they make sense. For example, for personal fouls, you are allowed one "free/inconsequential" foul per 10-minute period in average. Therefore, it makes sense to exclude a player after 3 personal fouls in a 20-minute game (which is furthermore usually without clock stops). Allowing too many fouls is not good for security (remember Basketball B in Spain).
Comment
>Remember that the rules are not made just for Basketball A at Unicon. They are supposed to define our sport and to be used (as much as possible/desired) in any unicycling event.
I don't think it makes sense for this rulebook to define too many structures for other tournaments and should be focused on what is required for Unicon and for that reason would only consider defining 2 or 3 game lengths. I think if we say that games are either 40 minutes with 4 10 minute periods or 24 minutes with 2 12 minute periods and then we can use the foul counts 4 personal and 5 team for 24 minute games. I'd also be open to defining a game of less than 20 minutes that consists of only 1 period (12 or 15 minutes?). Any other structure should be a deviation from these rules and not used at Unicon.
Comment
Organizing a tournament is a really challenging task and I'm generally against defining strong organizational constraints like specific game lengths that would make the task even more difficult. Also, focusing on Unicon does not mean focusing on Basketball A. For B, and even more Junior, it makes sense to have other game formats.
The others, what do you think?
Comment
My feeling is either to allow more flexibility by leaving this entirely up to the directors or to have strong recommendations and consistency (e.g. I don't think it helps the directors to allow a single period 11 minute game instead of saying either 10 or 12 is standard). I would separately consider what deviations we want if any for junior tournaments. I think there are better choices for flexibility in B than the game length (e.g. using a running clock).
Comment
I think we should aproach the problem differently, by stating there the minimum required time a game should be (either in A, B or junior tournament), and then define the allow number of foul for this duration, and work it up until the 4x10 min duration.
Comment
Indeed, the spirit of the rule in this discussion is to talk about our sport (how many fouls we are tolerating depending on the period and game lengths) and not at all on organizational aspects (how long games and game periods should be).
So here, we define the reasonable amount of fouls we tolerate in a unicycle basketball game, and this should depend on the period and game lengths, but rather not on the context of play.
On the other hand, in the discussion "Tournament style and rules", we need to discuss minimal game lengths and related questions.
Comment
Taking into account that the text I propose should work in any situation (even small games by young kids at small local events), that it does not prescribe any game format, and that minimal or mandatory game formats at major events (including Unicon) should be discussed in the other discussion, is my text in the first comment ready to be transformed into a proposal? (If not, please explain why and propose a text.)
Comment
I would prefer not to specify this at the level in the first comment, I think it is both too vague and too specific. If you want a rule I would consider basing it on your earlier phrase around 'for personal fouls, you are allowed one "free/inconsequential" foul per 10-minute period in average' but I think this should be more guidance than a rule and I would prefer to leave this to the discretion of the organizers.
Comment
In which sense is it too vague?
Comment
If you want to create a proposal out of this discussion, please remember that today (20.07.) is the last day to do so!
The wording of the proposal can still be adjusted in the coming days, but the proposal must be created today.
Comment
As Jan reminded us, I need to make a proposal out of this discussion now, although we may modify it or even refuse it in the coming days. The proposal will be my initial text, as no other texts were proposed despite the numerous comments.
I take the opportunity to further motivate my text:
- Keeping the same average number of free/inconsequential fouls per time unit as in on-foot basketball makes sense (and I would strongly disagree if more fouls per time unit would be allowed, because I think injuries caused by contacts are more probable in our sport than in on-foot basketball).
- The proposed rule was already used at Unicon 20 (down to game period of 7 minutes and total game length of 20 minutes), and nobody complained about that aspect (as far as I know).
- The proposed rule is is the rule we use in our French unicycle basketball league since its creation, and it would be convenient if the French rule is consistent with the IUF rules.
- The proposed rule seem to be consistent for the game formats the Joshuas envision to be used in Basketball A at Unicon.
- This level of details has already been used numerous times (except probably the game period of 5 or 6 minutes), including Unicon, CFM, and many important French tournaments. A typical use is when we want to maximize playtime: given that we have the gym for X hours and we have Y games to get played in that time interval, we decide to play the games in two periods of the optimal Z minutes, even if the largest Z that fits is an unusual duration like 11 minutes.
Comment
Maybe should we just add a word to make it explicitly clear that the "penality" occurt passed the number
Number of team fouls after which a team is in the team foul penalty situation (and we be penalized on the next foul) :
- Game period lasting 5 to 6 minutes: 2 fouls
- Game period lasting 7 to 8 minutes: 3 fouls
- Game period lasting 9 to 10 minutes: 4 fouls
- Game period lasting 11 to 12 minutes: 5 fouls
Or maybe I understand wrongly the sentence, but for me, on a 4x10min game, the free throw should be on the 5th fouls, not the 4th.
Comment
I agree that it would be better to add a clarification. In fact, I wanted to add one but I failed to find a clear and not incorrect one.
The difficulty is that the two three throws are not automatic. This is not the case for an offensive foul or for a defensive foul on a 3-point shot. This difficulty is probably the reason why the FIBA rules are using this notion of "team foul penalty situation".
Anyway, we need a clear and correct clarification in proper English, and I think Gab's proposition does not respect all three conditions. Sorry Gab ;-)
My best attempt, which does not respect either the three conditions in my opinion: "(the next non-offensive fouls on a player not in the act of shooting are penalized by 2 three throws)".
Comment
I used some help from Copilot and found something which seems clear and rather accurate:
Number of team fouls after which a team is in the team foul penalty situation (meaning that subsequent fouls result in free throws if they are personal and non-offensive):
- Game period lasting 5 to 6 minutes: 2 fouls
- Game period lasting 7 to 8 minutes: 3 fouls
- Game period lasting 9 to 10 minutes: 4 fouls
- Game period lasting 11 to 12 minutes: 5 fouls
- Game period lasting 13 to 15 minutes: 6 fouls
Is this clarification ok for you Gabriel (and the others)?