Unicon "Leagues"
Comments about this discussion:
Started
A new word for something we already have, that is a special case only for Unicon (I guess ?) and only affects these:
- Artistic Freestyle: Expert vs. Age Group
- Hockey: A vs. B Tournament
- Basketball: A vs. B Tournament
In one you win world champion title, the other rewards you as winner.
The reason being:
- Unicon is a great place to try out different disciplines (B Tournament, for fun)
- You start in group freestyle, so you do in (age group) freestyle (since you are already at Unicon) and enjoy international participants (competitive but no championship title)
Or watch me talk about it:
That is either of two "leagues" requires a qualification (freestyle) or in the case of team sport a very good explanation/condition on which one to enter. Even I personally could not name a good difference between A vs. B tournament in basketball, only a good feeling I should enter the B tournament. And a feeling always is a very bad indicator.
Same in Freestyle we have the case right now: Unicon is announced but freestylers are left with void on who or how many will be allowed to enter the age group competition and under what condition.
So in both cases there needs to be some rules to explain that, to fill the void and to close the loop from: you compete at national level(s) and want to know how to get to worlds.
I see it as an addition to be added to a Unicon Rulebook but was coming here to have a discussion about the name itself as I used "leagues" for explaining the concept but that doesn't make me happy.
My best attempt is:
- Championship Competition
- Convention Competition
Comment
To be honest, I have the impression that the term Expert was introduced at some point for exactly what you call “leagues”. In Expert level Competitions/Contests you can win a world champion title, the others (non Expert level Competitions/Contests) rewards you as winner.
At least in this context, the distinction between Expert and non Expert would make the most sense to me in order to differentiate between precisely these two “leagues”/levels of a Unicon. However, “leagues” seems to me to be a strange term for differentiating between these two competition levels.
Comment
Yep, Expert is older than me in the sport, I have no trace for that word. But today it is better to express difficulty/skill level, so we need a better one to express what it is being used for.
I'm not a fan of "leagues" either, but it was the best to explain it. For those not watching the video:
The concept of "leagues" I borrowed from soccer, where in europe each national league the best three teams can play in championship league the next season and teams 4-6 play in europa league the next season.
I'm certainly happy for a good term here :]
Comment
> But today it is better to express difficulty/skill level, so we need a better one to express what it is being used for.
I honestly don't know exactly what you mean by that? In my understanding, Expert / non Expert is used precisely to differentiate between the two competition levels you call “leagues”... so I also assumed that it was introduced for this differentiation.
Of course, it does not represent a generic term for the competition levels, as is the case with “leagues” - but the question is also whether we really need a generic term here?
Comment
This is a good topic, covering something that works but is a little wonky. The way we use Expert works, but doesn't have a good opposite word. In our usage, Expert implies not only that you're "really good" at something, but that you feel you are among the very best at a given competition/championship. That works for individual events, but not necessarily for team or group events.
How about expressing it in these two words:
- Championship (Class): Competes for world/national/event overall titles
- Competitor (Class): Competes for lower level titles/accolades
"Competitor" is not my favorite choice of word. Among other things, it looks/sounds too much like Championship (depending on the language). I'm sure we can find something better, that doesn't diminish the efforts of those athletes. For example, I love competing in Group B basketball because it's fun! I get to have a great time competing and there is still the possibility to win an award. That's very much in the spirit of our sport as I've known it over the years; we are "playing" these "games" for fun, and this method works for everyone from total beginners up to elite riders setting world records. So far, our sport still strongly encourages participation, more than just picking out the top athletes. I hope it stays that way for a long time.
The "Championhsip" label is also open for better words. "Elite" comes to mind, but I wouldn't want to scare people off either. For new riders it can be hard to know in which group to enter.
Another approach:
Title Class vs. Medal Class? In Title class you may win overall titles. In Medal class there are still awards to be won. Another option could also be Title Class vs. Award Class. We will need our linguists to help with how these will translate. :-)
Comment
Right now the league concept, in comparison to other sports, doesn't really work as there is not much continuation between tournaments. In the case of basketball, all teams are free to select which level they want to compete at and while we are considering adding rules to define how teams in the A tournament would be selected in practice this has not been an issue, we also can't really force teams from the B tournament to the A tournament (does hockey or freestyle force past winners to compete in the next level).
Comment
I agree with Joshua that "league" isn't very fitting.
I also agree with Jan that some disciplines already have a term for this:
- Muni (Unicon): Beginner, Intermediate/Advanced, Elite for Unicon
- Muni (most European national muni competitions): Beginner (sometimes Standard), Expert
- Teams: A/B/(C)
- Freestyle: Age Group, Expert
- OR Freestyle by (Category): Novice, Intermediate, Expert
So the first question would be: Is it necessary to have the same unified terms for various disciplines?
I think the Muni terms work well, and I also think A/B/(C) is very clear for team sports.
Even though Freestyle defines the possibility of three levels in the IUF Rulebook, I think Unicon usually only has age group and Expert.
One advantage to not defining it at the top level, if that it allows each discipline/event to decide if there are one, two or three levels.
If we decide to define top level terms, I would be for:
- Novice, Intermediate, Expert
However, Beginner and Elite have been used for Muni for the last few Unicons. And Beginner is pretty established in Muni.
I just checked the Rulebook, and Muni in fact already defines Beginner, Intermediate, Elite and Marathon, but primarily as course length.
I think my preference would be to leave it to individual events to define their own terms (so not explicitly add to the rulebook). As otherwise, the Rulebook would need to be modified in a number or places, e.g. Muni.
Comment
> So the first question would be: Is it necessary to have the same unified terms for various disciplines?
I think the big problem is that when different terms are used in different disciplines, it is extremely difficult to understand what the different terms actually mean and why these different levels exist. That's why I think our sport would benefit if we used a standardized concept here.
> One advantage to not defining it at the top level, if that it allows each discipline/event to decide if there are one, two or three levels.
I think that even if we define a standardized system for the competition levels, this does not automatically mean that all levels are always offered. However, it would mean that if different levels are offered, these levels would always be named uniformly and thus it would be easy to understand and directly recognizable across disciplines which level it is.
> How about expressing it in these two words:
- Championship (Class): Competes for world/national/event overall titles
- Competitor (Class): Competes for lower level titles/accolades
First of all, I would agree that it would probably be sufficient to define two competition levels in the rulebook - this would cover the fact that there is one level in which titles can be won and there can optionally be another level in which no titles can be won. From my point of view, Championship Level/Class or Expert for the one level would make sense. I don't think Competitor Class /Level is good, because all riders in a competition are competitors, so the name is somehow confusing.
> Title Class vs. Medal Class? In Title class you may win overall titles. In Medal class there are still awards to be won. Another option could also be Title Class vs. Award Class.
I also find the terms confusing, because there are also medals and awards at level where you can win titles.
If I had to suggest two terms, I would either go with the existing terms Novice/Beginner and Expert or something like Convention and Expert.
Comment
Discussing this with Ian yesterday, my view on Muni starts was wrong and he happily corrected me. That also means Muni falls into here as well. I would be with classes by Jon if they weren't already discussed here. I was using tiers already but didn't write it down here.
Championship Tier
Only competitions held in championship tiers are allowed to award championship titles. For Unicon the mandatory ones are mentioned in 1C.2. Competitions might be limited. Currently they fall under this tier by naming affixes, such as Expert, Elite or A tournament. However, they don't need any affix in their name at all (see next section). It goes by this (and one sample championship title)
- (Individual, Pair, Group) Artistic Freestyle -> Individual Freestyle World Champion
- Muni Downhill -> Downhill World Champion
- Hockey -> Hockey World Champion
- Basketball -> Basketball World Champion
Convention Tier(s)
In contrast are convention tiers, where competitors will not be awarded with championship titles. They will still be the winner of course and the competitions can be limited. The convention tiers (as the name suggest) support the convention aspect of an Event and in case of Unicon allow for an international competitor field.
The name must clearly indicate this is NOT a championship level of competition and in fact is some lower form of it. For example "Advanced" would make it sound more than championship level and is discouraged. Ian and me had "Intermediate" in mind, as it would indicate that intent.
An example:
- Intermediate Muni -> 1st place U17 Intermediate Muni Downhill
I'll throw in "Intermediate" and "Beginner" as terms.
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With the addition of Muni, it would no longer be a Unicon only rule. Also with Muni it brings in the plural for convention tierS.
It is also very important to note, that this will go into the press (and in the past germany had plenty world champions but they actually only won age group). So marketing and perception of the sport comes with that to.
Signup lets you choose one of these tiers. In case this is a limited competition (freestyle), you must be nominated (this can come in later though). After choosing your tier, you can further select a difficulty level (eg in Muni)