Add requirement for standard class and unlimited class for time-trial world records

This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.

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Comments about this discussion:

Started 24 Jun 06:50

Comment 25 Jun 11:03

Thanks for opening this discussion. Since you are not only proposing a simple extension here, I would ask you to copy your thoughts and the proposed changes into the discussion and explain them briefly so that we can discuss them in a meaningful way and everything can be followed here together.

Comment 29 Jun 01:18

Ok. I'm assuming it's not visible to the committee because the the proposal has not been approved

 

Background

Road racing competition have to include both standard class and unlimited class. However, for individual efforts like time-trial world records, this is not specified.  We keep unlimited time-trial records by default, but it does not allow athletic performances to be compared over time because there is a big technological component.   For this reason, we must have standard class record keeping as well. 

Also, we now have free-distance road races in the rulebook, so I have updated the rule to include this.   

I have tidied up some of the wording around standard class 10km as well.

This rule update is so we can include a 29 standard class for the Hour, 24 Hour, 100km and 100mile IUF world records.  Another discussion point is whether we should create a 36" standard class, because that is where there is a lot of history with both the Hour and 24 Hour records. 

Proposal

Old rule:

3B.2 Unicycles
Riders may use different unicycles for different racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered. See 3B.5.7 for the rules around using multiple unicycles in a single race.

For Unicon, if a 10 km race is organized, it must have two categories: 24 Class (including 20 Class for riders under 11 years old) and Unlimited Class. For conventions other than Unicon, this is recommended.

For Unicon, if a 42.195 km race and/or a 100 km race is organized, it must have two categories: 29 Class and Unlimited Class. For other conventions than Unicon, this is recommended.

Using 24 Class and smaller wheels is not allowed in races longer than 20km without express permission of the racing director. The following chart defines the unicycle size limitations.

***I have not included the rest of section 3B.2 as no changes are proposed***

New Rule:

3B.2 Unicycles

Riders may use different unicycles for different racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered. See 3B.5.7 for the rules around using multiple unicycles in a single race.

For Unicon, if a 10 km race is organized, it must have two categories: Standard Class (24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and including 20 Class for riders under 11 years old) and Unlimited Class. For conventions other than Unicon, this is recommended.  For Unicon, if a 42.195 km race and/or a 100 km race is organized, All other road racing events (free distance and fixed distance) must have two categories:  Standard 29 Class and Unlimited Class. For conventions other than Unicon, this is recommended.

Using The 24 Class and smaller wheels is are not allowed in races longer than 20km without express permission of the racing director. The following chart defines the unicycle size limitations.

Time-trial and fixed distance road race records must be kept for both standard and unlimited class. 

Comment 30 Jun 05:16

In my opinion, it makes sense to also have a standard category with 24 or 20 class unicycles for the Criterium.

The question would therefore be whether the whole rule could be formulated more general:

3B.2 Unicycles

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered. See 3B.5.7 for the rules around using multiple unicycles in a single race.

2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, for other conventions these two categories are strongly recommended. The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:
2.1 for all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium in the Standard category 24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.
2.2 for all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trails in the Standard category 29 Class and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.

3. Participation on 24 Class and smaller wheels are not allowed in races longer than 20 km without express permission of the racing director. Otherwise, it is allowed to ride in any particular Class with a unicycle that fully conforms to a smaller Class (e.g. a 20 Class unicycle is allowed in a 24 Class race).

4. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicacle Classes and size limitations *

5. Any unicycles in question must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.

Comment 02 Jul 06:50

Thanks Jan, that is structured better than my proposal.

The most important part of the proposal, linking in with the world record guidelines, is that standard class records must be kept for time trials.  

Does it need to be explicitly stated?  

Comment 02 Jul 07:28

> The most important part of the proposal, linking in with the world record guidelines, is that standard class records must be kept for time trials.  

Does it need to be explicitly stated?

I would say no, since world records should be recognized in all suitable official IUF disciplines, and if both categories are required in the rulebook, this also applies to world records.
However, if you think we should explicitly include this in the rulebook, then I would suggest we add the following to paragraph 2:
"2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships as well as records the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, [...]"

Comment 06 Jul 10:13

I agree with defining the 29" category as the standard category for road races and time trials. There may be no point in going over the advantages of choosing the 29" rather than the 36". For me, it's obvious, but it may be necessary to bring this up again.

This discussion ties in with discussion 96, where I proposed defining categories according to competitions.

I'm in favor of defining :
- a general rule for all road races and time trials with 2 categories: unlimited and 29" standard.
- exceptions: 10km and criterium (2 competitions: 24" standard and unlimited), climbing road race (1 unlimited competition).
I'm attached to the “climbing road race” format, and I think we need to agree on a simple definition of this race format. A climbing road race is planned for the next CFM, it's not the first, but it will be the first since the UNICON 20 climbing road race and it will be very similar. I think we need to learn from UNICON 20 to avoid making the same mistakes. Starting by not dividing the competitors into 2 categories.

Comment 07 Jul 05:33

I think with the exception of the climbing road race, paragraph 2 of the proposed rule is exactly what you would propose (at least taking into account what official disciplines there are in the section of road races) - or how would you formulate paragraph 2. alternatively?

Regarding the climbing road race: I understand that you are only suggesting the Unlimited category - however, there is currently no official IUF discipline “climbing road race”. Therefore, I would find it strange to include rules for such a discipline if it does not even exist as an official IUF discipline. If we officially include such a discipline, then the proposed paragraph 2. could simply be adapted accordingly.

Comment 07 Jul 16:41

I agree with Simon that in case of road uphills there should only be one category. 

Road Uphill is not official IUF Road Race but it is a Road Race.

Therefore below line needs to be changed: 
"For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races..."

Comment 07 Jul 17:02

As for the topic of standard categories for World Records, this should be addressed to the WR Committee as a suggested update to the WR Guidelines, not here. 

Comment 08 Jul 02:04

> Road Uphill is not official IUF Road Race but it is a Road Race.

But the IUF rules only cover the official IUF disciplines - if an organizer decides to offer other disciplines, then it is up to the organizer to set rules for them.
So I don't see where the proposed rule would need to be changed to allow an organizer to offer a discipline beyond the rulebook with their own rules.

> As for the topic of standard categories for World Records, this should be addressed to the WR Committee as a suggested update to the WR Guidelines, not here.

World records in a competitive sport make sense if there is a link to the official competition disciplines and the corresponding official categories - the decision of the rulebook as to which official disciplines and which official categories there are therefore always has a direct influence on the world records.
It does not make sense to hold a world record in a category that is not provided for in the rulebook. Nor does it make sense not to hold a world record in a category officially provided for in the Rulebook.

Comment 08 Jul 04:07

The Road uphill race is a specific case within a group of free distance races where the start and finish are in different locations. I do not see a rule in the rulebook which would indicate that such race should not be governed by the IUF Rulebook. However, in that specific case (uphill) it is no sense to divide riders into standard and unlimited categories.
Anyway, I think we lacking the explicit rule for the Road Uphills. This should be proposed in the different thread. 

 

Comment 08 Jul 04:32

Jan, I agree with you that WR should correspond to official categories. 
I was not so careful in reading the Ken's proposal. Now I better understand what is Ken's proposal about.

Jan> -Does it need to be explicitly stated? I would say no, since world records should be recognized in all suitable official IUF disciplines
I agree that it should not be explicitly stated in the Rulebook. Once the categories are in the rulebook, the WR Committee should take a notice on that. 

In other discussion, there were ideas to hold race 10k Standard + 10k TT Unlimited. 
If we pass the proposal of this discussion, such a combination would not be allowed.

Comment 08 Jul 04:49

> Anyway, I think we lacking the explicit rule for the Road Uphills. This should be proposed in the different thread.

I would agree with that immediately.

> If we pass the proposal of this discussion, such a combination would not be allowed.

I see your point. One could extend my proposal as follows to cover this case:

2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, for other conventions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-Trail, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-Trail. The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:
2.1 for all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium in the Standard category 24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.
2.2 for all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trails in the Standard category 29 Class and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.

Comment 08 Jul 05:17

What I don't like in this proposal is that it requires double amount of the competitions (because standard and unlimited are two different competitions), and still allows the situation that participants can only take part in half number of the offered competitions. I understand why it is like this, and that there is usually no time to run all competitions on different days.
However, if it is allowed 10k Standard + 10k Unlimited than it should also be allowed 10k Standard + "X" unlimited, (or "A" Standard + "B" Unlimited) because the standard (or unlimited) riders cannot participate in other event anyway. 

The Rule - 3B.2 Unicycles - should specify what unicycles are allowed in which categories,
Perhaps we should have another rule: - Categories - that will specify which categories are recognized in specific type of the Road race.
The Required categories  should be specified in: - 1C.2 Required Events at Unicon

Comment 08 Jul 07:19

> What I don't like in this proposal is that it requires double amount of the competitions (because standard and unlimited are two different competitions), and still allows the situation that participants can only take part in half number of the offered competitions.

But I think that's the whole point of the rule, that both categories must always be offered? In terms of implementation, it is not possible to organize the road races so that participants can take part in both categories.
So basically we have two options:
Option 1: We give up the requirement that both categories must always exist.
Option 2: We accept that it is not possible to take part in both categories and that you have to choose one. But by specifying that both are offered, one can always be sure that one can start in one's desired category.

> However, if it is allowed 10k Standard + 10k Unlimited than it should also be allowed 10k Standard + "X" unlimited, (or "A" Standard + "B" Unlimited) because the standard (or unlimited) riders cannot participate in other event anyway.

So your suggestion would be option 1, right?
But what is the advantage of saying we exclude the unlimited riders from a 10 km course that has already been measured and instead hold a different race for them on a different day, in which the standard riders are excluded?
The big effort in road races is to close the routes and, if necessary, to measure them - in my opinion it makes sense to always offer a competition for each official category if this effort is done for one curse.

Comment 08 Jul 10:39

Jan>But I think that's the whole point of the rule, that both categories must always be offered?
Not always, so far only at Unicons and we are working on two exemptions: (1) Uphill and (2) situation when the race can be splitted to 10k Standard + 10k TT unlimited. Instead having this way around rule, it would be better to include in the 1C.2 (Required Events at Unicon) what races and what categories should be held at Unicon. 

Jan>what is the advantage of saying we exclude the unlimited riders from a 10 km course
It is not riders that are excluded but the unicycles that are excluded. Those riders who would normally choose to start in unlimited have a chance to switch unicycles and start in the standard category if they desire. 
Unlimited and standard races are two very different efforts. How would it look like if participants in jumps had to choose between long jump and high jump? Those are two different efforts, skills, unicycles. We should not assume that standard or unlimited riders like the only one category, and by assuming that we are actually preventing one group for trying another category. 
Do not understand me wrong, I understand the problem with organization of Unicon or other events and I know that it may never happen on big conventions that we will have categories on different days. My point is that 10k standard, 10k unlimited, 10k TT standard, and 10k TT unlimited are 4 different races but on 2 (or 3) different unicycle setups. When we have a prepared race course (closed and measured), for various reasons it is good to make few races. We usually have 10kS+10kU, but the logic remains the same with 10kS+10kTTU. And with 4 different races on the same day and same course the logic still remains the same.

We should decide what road races we require at Unicon at minimum, or maybe amount of races for unlimited and amount of races for standard, and taking account that unlimited riders have much less option than standard riders who normally participate in plentiful of track races. 

Comment 08 Jul 16:09

This is going off topic- I know a few were upset about the Unicon 20 hill climb race, because it keeps coming up.  This was a 'free-distance race', the first one ever run by the IUF.  The reasons for having a free-distance race are well documented in previous discussions.  

The point of free distance is to allow organisers the freedom to make an event with variable terrain (ie not flat).  No one asked the organisers to make it almost entirely uphill with a set gradient.  I had envisaged a race like in bicycle stage racing- where often there are several big uphills and downhills, or a long rolling race with a hill climb finish. 

Unlimited is supposed to be a test of a equipment choice/strategy, whereas in standard class you don't have to worry about what your competitors are riding.  Unlimited can include the 29" standard- but the riders who enter in unlimited make that choice, thinking it will be faster than someone riding 36".  In standard class- you don't care whether a 36" is faster than a 29" on that type of terrain.  

Unicon also has to follow the rulebook. There was no such thing as an 'uphill-only road race', only free-distance. We can't suddenly change the rules to merge the standard and unlimited class. It would also set a bad precedent for the 'free-distance' category. 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment 08 Jul 17:47

Ken> Unlimited is supposed to be a test of a equipment choice/strategy. 
There is also equipment choice within standard category.

Ken>Unicon also has to follow the rulebook. There was no such thing as an 'uphill-only road race', only free-distance. We can't suddenly change the rules to merge the standard and unlimited class. It would also set a bad precedent for the 'free-distance' category.
There is no rule in the rulebook that require 2 categories on the Free-distance race. It was solely decision of the Race Director, even though top riders consulted that it would be better to merge categories.

In Grenoble the gradient was 6.5% (low), if it was 7.5 % we would barely see unicycles bigger than 29. Would you allow for merging the categories then? or would you still keep 2 categories and split medals among 6 riders who rode on standard unicycles?

In my opinion, in the case that rules allow for flexibility, and there is unambiguous opinion of best riders to change decisions made by the Race Director, they should be listened. Why do we need to write new rules every time the race director is not listening to the crowd? 

Comment 08 Jul 21:12

"There is also equipment choice within standard category." 

Minimal. There is a big difference turning up to a race knowing that your competitor's only equipment choice is crank length (29" standard), than not knowing whether they'll turn up with a 52" wheel or a 5 speed hub. 

"There is no rule in the rulebook that require 2 categories on the Free-distance race. It was solely decision of the Race Director, even though top riders consulted that it would be better to merge categories."

The IUF rulebook is written for high level competition like Unicon and regional championships.  Both standard and unlimited categories are of equal importance.  Merging them favours the unlimited class and sets a bad precedent.  

In Grenoble the gradient was 6.5% (low), if it was 7.5 % we would barely see unicycles bigger than 29. Would you allow for merging the categories then? or would you still keep 2 categories and split medals among 6 riders who rode on standard unicycles?

It's the very first free-distance race held at Unicon. We did not expect organisers to make an uphill race designed for a specific wheel-size.  

Perhaps you should advocate for an uphill road race category.  

In my opinion, in the case that rules allow for flexibility, and there is unambiguous opinion of best riders to change decisions made by the Race Director, they should be listened. Why do we need to write new rules every time the race director is not listening to the crowd? 

It's not the race director trying to write 'new rules'.  The rules followed was agreed upon by the rulebook committee for that edition of the IUF rulebook. The Unicon 20 hill climb also was won on a 36", not a 29".  

The issue keeps coming up, and has nothing to do with the rulebook topic. 

This is why I no longer volunteer my time to organise races. 

Comment 08 Jul 21:15

In my opinion, in the case that rules allow for flexibility, and there is unambiguous opinion of best riders to change decisions made by the Race Director, they should be listened. Why do we need to write new rules every time the race director is not listening to the crowd? 

Unicon doesn't just cater to the 'best riders', it caters to all riders.  It was advertised as having two categories. The loudest voices aren't the only voices. 

 

Comment 08 Jul 21:35

"Does it need to be explicitly stated?

"I would say no, since world records should be recognized in all suitable official IUF disciplines, and if both categories are required in the rulebook, this also applies to world records.
However, if you think we should explicitly include this in the rulebook, then I would suggest we add the following to paragraph 2:
"2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships as well as records the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, [...]" -- Jan

Thanks Jan, I think there should be specific wording to tie it in with IUF World Records, so ".....standard and unlimited are mandatory for all road races and time-trials."

If Maksym creates a new uphill category perhaps there can be wording to exempt this and allow only one category- eg if it's so steep only a 16" unicycle can ride up, or it can be a reverse standard category (ie you can't ride anything smaller than a 29" or 24" standard in the standard class)

"I agree with defining the 29" category as the standard category for road races and time trials. There may be no point in going over the advantages of choosing the 29" rather than the 36". For me, it's obvious, but it may be necessary to bring this up again." --Simon

I agree. For consistency it's best to stick with a 29" standard.  

In terms of the world records- it means Stefan Gauler's 1991 24hr record can be be reclassified as the current standard class world record. Although he rode a 26"/130mm, it looks less out of place than sitting there amongst a whole lot of 36" unicycles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicycle_time_trial_records#:~:text=It%20took%20another%207%20years,36%22%20wheels%20and%20Schlumpf%20hubs.

 

Comment 09 Jul 03:02

> Not always, so far only at Unicons and we are working on two exemptions:

But for all other competitions it is recommended and many competitions take this recommendation very seriously.
With regard to the exceptions, it is not yet clear whether there should really be an exception for uphill races and for 10 km it is not really an exception either, as there is still a 10 km race for the standard and one for the unlimited category, just in different race formats. However, the 10 km is the only discipline in which both race formats officially exist, which is why this cannot be transferred to other road races.

> Those are two different efforts, skills, unicycles.

That's right, and that's why I think it's justified for riders to have to decide whether they want to take part in one or the other. Competitions that offer many different disciplines often require riders to decide what they want to take part in.

> We should decide what road races we require at Unicon at minimum

I don't think that will work and I don't think it's really a good idea. The Road Races offer the largest number of different races, but only a very limited number of them can be organized at a competition. Depending on the local conditions, very different races may be suitable - specifying which road races are to be offered at a Unicon would mean that the most suitable races could no longer be offered, which is certainly not desirable.

 

> Unlimited is supposed to be a test of a equipment choice/strategy, whereas in standard class you don't have to worry about what your competitors are riding.  Unlimited can include the 29" standard- but the riders who enter in unlimited make that choice, thinking it will be faster than someone riding 36".  In standard class- you don't care whether a 36" is faster than a 29" on that type of terrain.

I completely agree with Ken here. The point of a standard category is precisely that as a rider you don't want to worry about what kind of equipment the others are using and whether there might be better equipment for the specific course. Everyone here rides with standardized equipment and that's the core of this category.

> Thanks Jan, I think there should be specific wording to tie it in with IUF World Records, so ".....standard and unlimited are mandatory for all road races and time-trials."

But Time-Trails are Road Races and therefore already coverd by the sentence "2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships as well as records the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, [...]"
I also do not mentioned the Criterium explicit, becaus it also belongs to the Road Races...

All in all, what specific changes do you think are needed to my proposal?

I still think that if a race is organized, but only one category would be offered, many of the riders who would normally start in the corresponding other category would not simply change the category, but would be disappointed that there is no race for their preferred category. And since it is always difficult to organize road races, the ones that are organized should, in my opinion, be always offered for both categories.

Comment 09 Jul 09:23

Comment 13 Jul 06:49

"This type of event is an opportunity to hold an inclusive race that brings together standard and unlimited competitors in the same race."

 An 'inclusive' race that cancels the standard class in favour of unlimited class.

You don't know at the start whether a 36" or a 29" or a geared unicycle is going to win. If there is no standard class, then standard class riders have to figure out what is the best wheel size. It's not the standard class vs the unlimited class, it's unlimited class only.  As a standard class rider I would have ridden a 36" on the Unicon20 hill climb if I had my 36" with me. 

"I don't see the problem with making exceptions to the rule that requires each discipline to have a standard competition and an unlimited competition. This rule was created when there were only fixed-distance races on flat ground. If we propose a new race format, it's normal to change the rules."--Simon

The new race format was the 'free-distance race'. When I proposed this in an earlier edition of the rulebook, it was meant to take in variable terrain- both up and down, and be more like a bike race. Even famous mountain stages in cycling grand tours are not all up.  They are up, down, up down. Or flat, rolling, then up etc.

The hosts made an uphill only race, which fits the criteria of 'free distance', but caused a significant overlap between 29" standard and 36".  It's probably best discussed elsewhere. Thanks for your proposal. 

" Some standard riders think that the freedom of crank length is a problem for the standard 29" category. A few years ago, the best rode 89mm cranks; today, they ride 75mm. For a road hill climb, the question for all competitors is crank choice. But there are other elements that can come into play: the weight of the unicycle (a carbon rim and a titanium frame can be an advantage), the use of clipless pedals... Today there are no regulations in the standard category on these aspects, which can lead to major inequalities in the equipment. I'm not saying that everything should be regulated, but we should already be aware of it."

When I started racing, the best unlimited class riders were on 700c/65mm wheels.  Of course there are technological changes including equipment weight, clipless pedals etc, but in terms of regulating competitors to compete on similar equipment, wheel size is the biggest factor.

A competitor can make a tactical decision whether a course (and rider) suits 65mm/80mm/89mm cranks, but that's not the same as lining up next to someone with a gearbox.  I know my standard 29" race times from Unicon 17-21 are relatively comparable, with the course (despite being flat) making the biggest difference to performance. 

It's possible there will be more regulation in future but I don't see the need currently.  In bicycling, they regulate everything from bike weight to the types of wheels that can be used.

 

 

 

 

 

Comment 13 Jul 06:55

But Time-Trails are Road Races and therefore already coverd by the sentence "2. For a large events such as Unicon or continental championships as well as records the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, [...]"--Jan

Ok, if you think that is sufficient to allow time-trial records to be kept in both the standard 29 and unlimited category.  I'm finding it hard to keep track of our definitions, and the world record guidelines treats 'road-racing' and 'time-trial' records as separate. 

Comment 14 Jul 08:02

@Ken: I see your point. Previously, there was no clear list in the Rulebook of all the disciplines within the Road Races, which is now changing with section “3B.2 Road Racing Disciplines”. It is therefore clear to me that the general Road Racing rules in the Rulebook also apply to all the disciplines listed under 3B.2.
For the sake of standardization, however, we should in future refer within the WRG to “Road Races: Fixed Distance Race Records” and “Road Races: Time Trail Records” or something similar, so that it is clear exactly what the WRG refer to - but that is not a problem for the Rulebook.

Comment 17 Jul 16:46

Isn't 24" standard open to riders younger than 11? I thought the 20"/24" selection for U11 was elective rather than prescriptive. The way I read it as drafted, a 10 year old is required to ride a 20" for standard  

Comment 18 Jul 01:44

> Isn't 24" standard open to riders younger than 11?

No, it is not. In general, every rider is allowed to use a smaller unicycle, but larger unicycles are not permitted. The idea behind the rule is that a larger wheel gives a massive advantage and therefore the results of 20“ and 24” wheels cannot be compared with each other. However, as not all children in the U11 age group will be able to ride a 24“ unicycle, it has been decided that the U11 age group is generally only allowed to ride 20” wheels so that everyone has the same conditions and the results are comparable.

However, there is an exception in the track races: there, U11 riders can enter the U13 category voluntarily and thus also start on a 24" wheel - but this addition does not actually exist in the road racing part of the rules... but I don't know whether there is a specific reason for this or whether it simply got lost at some point. In the (new) track races the rule is as follows:

2B.1.2 Unicycles
[...]
3. The youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).
[...]

Comment 18 Jul 06:53

I personally would prefer that 24” standard (and 20” standard) mean the same thing across the board, and that we align our grouping with the track grouping. I don’t think this makes a big difference in practice, but an 8 year old being allowed to ride track on a 24” but not the 10k doesn’t make that much sense to me. 

Comment 18 Jul 09:08

I have gone through the discussion again and - apart from Tim's comment and the discussion about a possible exception to the two-category rule for Hill Climb Races - I have not found any specific requests for changes. I would like to move the topic of Hill Climb Races to the associated Hill Climb Races proposal, as we only need this exception if this discipline is actually introduced. I would include Tim's comment to take into account the regulation regarding 20“ U11 and 24” U13 and align it with the track rules.

My overall proposal would be as follows:

 

3B.2 Unicycles

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered. See 3B.5.7 for the rules around using multiple unicycles in a single race.

2. For large events such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, for other conventions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-Trail, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-Trail. The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:
2.1 for all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium in the Standard category 24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.
2.2 for all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trails in the Standard category 29 Class and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.

3. For all events of the Standard category according to 2.1 the youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).

4. Participation on 24 Class and smaller wheels are not allowed in races longer than 20 km without express permission of the racing director. Otherwise, it is allowed to ride in any particular Class with a unicycle that fully conforms to a smaller Class (e.g. a 20 Class unicycle is allowed in a 24 Class race).

5. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicacle Classes and size limitations *

6. Any unicycles in question must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.

 

Are there any things that need to be changed for you to agree to the proposal or does the proposal fit as it is?

Comment 20 Jul 09:49

Since there is no feedback, I assume that everyone would agree to the rule proposed here and I will adjust the official proposal accordingly!

Comment 26 Jul 07:17

I think it's very wordy and hard to follow.  I've rewritten it for clarity.

3B.2 Unicycles and Unicycle Classes

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered. See 3B.5.7 for the rules around using multiple unicycles in a single race. 

1. Unicycles must comply with rules for the events in which they are entered.  (*no need to have the last sentence about 3B.5.7, it is self explanatory when they get to that section*)

2. For large events such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, for other conventions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-Trail, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-Trail. The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:
2.1 for all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium in the Standard category 24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.
2.2 for all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trails in the Standard category 29 Class and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.

2. Unicon and continental championships must offer both Standard and Unlimited Class in all road racing competition.  If the 10km fixed-distance race and 10km time-trial are run together, then it is permissible to offer just the standard class for fixed-distance and just the unlimited class for time-trial. 

2.1 For all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10km in length, standard class is the 24" class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20" class for riders under 11yrs old. 

2.2 For all free and fixed distance road races over 10km in length, standard class is the 29" class. 

3. For all events of the Standard category according to 2.1 the youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).

I don't understand this sentence at all. 

4. Participation on 24 Class and smaller wheels are not allowed in races longer than 20 km without express permission of the racing director. Otherwise, it is allowed to ride in any particular Class with a unicycle that fully conforms to a smaller Class (e.g. a 20 Class unicycle is allowed in a 24 Class race).

4. A unicycle can be ridden if it is smaller than the class in which it is entered (eg standard 20" class is allowed in a standard 24" class race).  However, if a race is over 20km, 24" class and smaller unicycles are not permitted unless exempted by the race director. 

5. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicycle Classes and size limitations *

6. Any unicycles in question must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.

6. Unicycles must be checked for compliance (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission) with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. This check should be carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.

Comment 27 Jul 04:21

Thank you for your suggestions for improvement, Ken. I copied paragraphs 1, 3, 5, and 6 practically word for word from the Track chapter in order to maintain a certain consistency, as many of the rules are very similar and I find it unfortunate to have completely different wording in each section.

Regarding paragraph 1: The first sentence was designed to explicitly emphasize that different events can be completed on different unicycles. This explicit emphasis would be lost with your suggestion.
Regarding the last sentence, I would agree with you that it is not absolutely necessary.

Regarding paragraph 2: Why are you deleting the recommendation to offer botcategories at other competitions as well? Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense to always offer both categories and would therefore recommend it for all competitions.
I also find it very confusing that you refer to Standard and Unlimited Classes – the unicycle classes are defined in the table, and there is no Standard Class. Why not stick with categories and name the classes, if there is a corresponding class in the table?
The rule was formulated in such a way that it was clear from the sentence structure that 2.1 or 2.2 belonged to the rule, which is no longer the case since you deleted “The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:” from the rule - why?
In paragraph 2.1, you removed the Criterium, and in paragraph 2.2, you removed the Time Trails—why? Both disciplines would no longer be covered, and it is no longer clear which unicycles may be used in the Standard and Unlimited categories.

Regarding paragraph 3: Tim brought this up in the discussion: In track races, U11 riders are allowed to compete in the U13 category with a 24 Class unicycle. For consistency reasons, it was therefore proposed to adopt this rule.

Regarding paragraph 6: As I said, the paragraph was aligned with that of Track Races. I would therefore suggest that we leave it as proposed for now and make an adjustment to both sections in the next rulebook update—would that be okay for you, Ken?

Comment 29 Jul 07:40

"Regarding paragraph 1: The first sentence was designed to explicitly emphasize that different events can be completed on different unicycles. This explicit emphasis would be lost with your suggestion."

I removed it because it is wordy and is stating the obvious.  The whole section is devoted to what unicycles can be used for competition, so why do we need to say that different unicycles can be used for different events?

Regarding paragraph 2: Why are you deleting the recommendation to offer botcategories at other competitions as well? Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense to always offer both categories and would therefore recommend it for all competitions.

Again, excessive wordiness.  We expect the big international conventions to include the main competitions (not just in road racing, but other unicycle disciplines).  Small conventions aim to do the most they can with the resources they have.  Stating that something is 'recommended' will not make any difference to whether it is offered.   As an event organiser, I ignore wording that says 'recommended' and only provide an event if there is sufficient interest and I have capacity to run it. 

I also find it very confusing that you refer to Standard and Unlimited Classes – the unicycle classes are defined in the table, and there is no Standard Class. Why not stick with categories and name the classes, if there is a corresponding class in the table?

I forgot we had replaced the term 'Standard Class' with 'Standard Category' and named classes.  Just substitute 'standard category' for 'standard class'.   Also I see we're talking about unlimited class within the unlimited category (now that's confusing!)

The rule was formulated in such a way that it was clear from the sentence structure that 2.1 or 2.2 belonged to the rule, which is no longer the case since you deleted “The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:” from the rule - why?

We can see 2.1 and 2.2 belongs in section 2, because it is a subsection.  I removed 'the permitted unicycle classes are' because section 2.1 and 2.2 states what those unicycle classes are.  

I would add 2.3 which would be: "There is no age or distance restrictions for the unlimited class within the unlimited category"

In paragraph 2.1, you removed the Criterium, and in paragraph 2.2, you removed the Time Trails—why? Both disciplines would no longer be covered, and it is no longer clear which unicycles may be used in the Standard and Unlimited categories.

I thought they all come under road racing, as this is the road racing section.  It can be amended to add criterium and time-trial to section 2.1 and 2.2

"Regarding paragraph 3: Tim brought this up in the discussion: In track races, U11 riders are allowed to compete in the U13 category with a 24 Class unicycle. For consistency reasons, it was therefore proposed to adopt this rule."

It needs a substantial rewording because it's hard to make sense of it. I propose adding to 2.1 "

2.1 For all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10km in length, standard category is the 24 class for all riders, and 20 class for riders under 11yrs.  Riders under 11yrs have the option of competing in either 24 class or 20 class (e.g. 0-8yrs on 20 Class, 9-10yrs on 20 Class, 0-13yrs on 24 Class)

Regarding paragraph 6: As I said, the paragraph was aligned with that of Track Races. I would therefore suggest that we leave it as proposed for now and make an adjustment to both sections in the next rulebook update—would that be okay for you, Ken?

I don't agree, because the wording is clunky and unprofessional. 

'unicycles in question'...who is questioning this?  This is a space filler that is meaningless in a rulebook.  I removed the word 'preferably' because a rulebook should be prescriptive- it tells you want you need to do rather than give you vague suggestions.  '...within the wheel class'...removed because if you are ensuring compliance, that's what you're checking. No need to state the obvious. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment 29 Jul 08:00

Comment 29 Jul 11:09

> The whole section is devoted to what unicycles can be used for competition, so why do we need to say that different unicycles can be used for different events?

I would agree with you in principle—but I've had participants who asked me, as event director (okay, that was an Track competition not a Road Racing Competition), exactly that question... so it doesn't seem to be obvious to all participants.

> As an event organiser, I ignore wording that says 'recommended' and only provide an event if there is sufficient interest and I have capacity to run it. 

That may apply to you personally, but in Germany, the vast majority of competitions follow our recommendations. If the recommendation is omitted, I am sure that many organizers in Germany would say, “Well, if it only applies to Unicon, then we won't do it.” If, on the other hand, the rules state that it is recommended for all other competitions, it would be implemented as specified in the recommendation. So if we consistently omit recommendations, this will definitely have an impact (at least in Germany) on how competitions are organized.

> Also I see we're talking about unlimited class within the unlimited category (now that's confusing!)

For me, it's a very clear rule: there are certain unicycle classes, and we offer different categories in different events. And in each category, certain unicycle classes are permitted. For me, this is much more logical and comprehensible than when classes and categories are mixed and sometimes one thing is meant and sometimes another. The fact that there is only one possible unicycle class in the Unlimited category is just the way it is – perhaps there will be a subdivision here in the future... who knows. But then the proposed principle would still be applicable and logical.

> I would add 2.3 which would be: "There is no age or distance restrictions for the unlimited class within the unlimited category"

That would not be in line with the numbering, because sub-items with X.1, X.2, etc. are always designed to be either/or rules, meaning that several of the sub-items X.1, X.2, etc. never apply at the same time. That was also taken into account in my wording.

> I thought they all come under road racing, as this is the road racing section.

But if they are not mentioned anywhere, while other disciplines are, then readers will wonder what has happened to these disciplines and why they are not mentioned. As mentioned, 2.1 and 2.2 were also designed as either/or rules to keep the structure clear. However, if time trials and criteriums are not mentioned in either option, it is unclear how to proceed with these disciplines.

> It needs a substantial rewording because it's hard to make sense of it. I propose adding to 2.1 "

Your proposal is essentially the same, except that it destroys the principle of either/or rules. I don't see any advantage in that.

> 'unicycles in question'...who is questioning this?  This is a space filler that is meaningless in a rulebook.  I removed the word 'preferably' because a rulebook should be prescriptive- it tells you want you need to do rather than give you vague suggestions.

This means that the wheel size and crank length must always be checked at every competition, regardless of the circumstances, even if the officials have no doubt that the cranks are permissible (e.g., due to existing crank stickers or similar). This will definitely mean that some competitions will no longer be held in accordance with IUF rules.
The rule was deliberately formulated in such a way that it gives the organizer the opportunity to check every unicycle, but also the option to waive this check without the competition immediately becoming non-IUF compliant.

Comment 31 Jul 01:55

I went through my proposal and Ken's proposal again and tried to find a compromise that takes into account the things that are particularly important to me for the reasons described above, while also considering Ken's comments:

3B.2 Unicycles

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as all comply with the rules for events in which they are entered.
### I shortened the paragraph, but would like to leave in the obvious part that different unicycles can be used in different events, as I have been asked about this several timesin the past. ###

2. Large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships the two categories Standard and Unlimited are mandatory for all Road Races, for other competitions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-Trail, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-Trail. The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are
### I would leave this paragraph unchanged (we can delete the additional 10 km in the penultimate sentence, that wouldn't matter to me). Otherwise, I would like to keep the structure as it is, as the principle of the either/or rule remains in place for the following sub-points. ###
2.1 for all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium, in the Standard category 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and 24 Class for all other. The youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).
2.2 for all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trails, in the Standard category 29 Class.
2.3 for all Road Racing Events, in the Unlimited Category the Unlimited Class.
### As suggested by Ken, I have moved the Unlimited category into its own sub-section and integrated the aspect that U11 riders have the option of starting in the U13 into sub-section 2.1. However, in 2.1, it would be very important to me that the rule explicitly states that riders who decide to start on a 24 Class unicycle are no longer classified in U11, but automatically move up to U13. ###

4. It is allowed to ride in any particular Class with a unicycle that fully conforms to a smaller Class (e.g. a 20 Class unicycle is allowed in a 24 Class race).  However, if a race is over 20km, 24 Class and smaller unicycles are not permitted unless exempted by the race director. 
### I have changed the order as suggested by Ken ###

5. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicacle Classes and size limitations *

6. Any unicycles in question must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.
### I would like to keep the "ans unicycles in question" because that gives officials the option to not check the cranks if they have no doubt that they are fine. I would be also fine with making this check mandatory for Unicons and leave it to the "in question" rule for other competitions. ###

Comment 03 Aug 07:01

All proposals must be put to the vote as soon as possible. We should find a compromise very quickly that everyone can agree on if we want to change this rule in this round of the Rulebook Committee.

Comment 05 Aug 01:55

I have now adapted the proposal to what I suggested here – overall, it remains quite similar to what is already in the rules, but explicitly takes into account time trials, criterium, and free and fixed distance races, which I believe are the most important aspects of the rule change.

Since we are really running out of time, I would put the proposal to a vote and hope that everyone can live with it somehow. During the next revision of the rulebook, we can then take another look at which paragraphs we can/must reword or simplify, with more time and hopefully more participation in the discussion.

Comment 06 Aug 08:27

It's still not easy to understand. I'll try to switch the sentences slightly and add punctuation to make it easier to read

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as all they comply with the rules for events in which they are entered.

2. For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, the two categories both the Standard and Unlimited categories are mandatory for all Road Races. For other competitions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-Trail trial, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-Trail trial.

The permitted unicycle classes within the categories are:

2.1 In the standard category:

For all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium:

-20 Class for riders under 11 years old and

-24 Class for all other. The youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).

For all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-Trailstrials: 29 Class.

2.2 In the Unlimited category:
2.3 for all Road Racing Events, in the Unlimited Category: the Unlimited Class.

For all road racing events (fixed and free distance road race, time trial, criterium): Unlimited class.  There are no age or distance restrictions 

3. It is allowed to ride in any particular Class with a unicycle that fully conforms to a smaller Class (e.g. a 20 Class unicycle is allowed in a 24 Class race).  However, if a race is over 20km, 24 Class and smaller unicycles are not permitted unless exempted by the race director. 

3. A unicycle can be ridden if it is smaller than the class in which it is entered (eg standard 20" class is allowed in a standard 24" class race).  However, if a race is over 20km, 24" class and smaller unicycles are not permitted unless exempted by the race director.

4. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicacle Classes and size limitations *

5. Any unicycles in question Unicycles must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used.  I'm not sure if it's lost in translation, but 'in question' doesn't add the meaning you imply, which is to give the organiser option of checking the unicycle or waiving this.  The second sentence: 'preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race' means it can be pre-checked and certified with a sticker, if that is what you are trying to convey.

Comment 06 Aug 10:36

Thank you, Ken, for your suggestions for improvement—I would agree with most of them, but not with the reordering of paragraphs 2.1 to 2.3.
Why I don't support the reordering: With my suggestion, you only need to read the first sentence of paragraphs 2.1 to 2.3 to know whether this paragraph is relevant to the race in question or can be skipped. With your suggestion, you have to read paragraph 2.1 to the end, as the last sentence contains further information that is relevant, even if the first part of the paragraph is irrelevant. However, the idea behind the either/or rules was actually to recognize right at the beginning whether this rule is relevant or can be skipped.
I have the impression that we would need considerably more time to reach a consensus here – time that we definitely don't have in this round of the Rulebook Committee (the deadline for starting voting was actually August 3!).

Comment 06 Aug 11:07

I don’t know that we ought to consider the burden of reading an entire rulebook section too large. I think Ken’s edits do flow better in english and have equivalent meaning. 

 

I have one small issue with 2.2 as Ken has presented it. “There are no age or distance restrictions“ reads to me as conferring a right to the racers that they will not be restricted by age. While I do not want to see races restricted by age, I think there may be times when an organizer has a legitimate interest to do so. Especially in road racing, where races might be held on live roads. I think the actual intent of that sentence was captured in 2.2.3 

Comment 06 Aug 16:12

Thanks Jan, sorry I realised time is pressing, but I needed to have a think about this section before commenting.

I'm not worried about the ordering- it was just to make it clearer. How about just having section 2, and then subtitles 'in the standard category' and 'in the unlimited category'?

Tim- yes I can see your point.  We could just say 'there are no distance restrictions'

Comment 07 Aug 01:53

> I don’t know that we ought to consider the burden of reading an entire rulebook section too large.

My main concern is not that it would be too difficult to read an entire section. My main concern is that, in recent years, I have often noticed that many of our rules contain either/or sections, and it is often very difficult for many riders/coaches, etc. to determine which part of the rules applies in a particular case and which part does not. To solve this problem, the first idea was to divide the rules into individual paragraphs, with each paragraph containing exactly one aspect of the rule. On the other hand, in the last round of the Rulebook Committee in the Track Committee, I started to consistently separate all either/or parts of the rules, where one part refers only to certain disciplines, for example, using subsections to make it clear that a choice has to be made here. This makes it possible to communicate much more precisely with athletes or coaches about which part of a rule is being referred to and which part of a rule applies. And for this very reason, I believe it is essential that the two options that exist in this case, depending on the discipline, are also separate subsections. Otherwise, the aspect of clear referability of one of the two options is lost.

Comment 07 Aug 03:44

sorry, I don't know what you mean there.

Jan- are you happy with my last suggestion?  If so I will modify and we can put it to vote

Comment 07 Aug 06:53

As stated above, I believe that all parts of rules that either apply only to certain disciplines (which is the case here) or require a selection to be made in advance of a competition should be made clear by dividing the individual options into separate subparagraphs. This is the only way to clearly refer to the applicable rule or selected option. However, this is not the case in your suggestion, as there is only one subparagraph for the standard category, which, depending on the discipline, includes different classes.

Comment 08 Aug 17:54

I'm not sure I was using subparagraphs so much as bullet points.  Here it is rewritten:

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road racing events, as long as they comply with the rules for events in which they are entered.

2. For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, both the Standard and Unlimited categories are mandatory for all Road Races. For other competitions these two categories are strongly recommended. An exception is the combined organization of a 10 km fixed distance race and a 10 km Time-trial, where it is permissible to offer just the Standard category for the 10 km fixed distance race and just the Unlimited category for the 10 km Time-trial.

The permitted unicycle classes within the categories are:

2.1 In the standard category:

For all free and fixed distance road races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium:

-20 Class for riders under 11 years old

-24 Class for all other. The youngest age group for 24 Class wheels should have a minimum age of 0, so riders 10 and younger have the option of racing on 24 Class with those groups (e.g. 0-8 on 20 Class, 9-10 on 20 Class, 0-13 on 24 Class).

For all free and fixed distance road races over 10 km in length and Time-trials: 29 Class.

2.2 In the Unlimited category:
For all road racing events (fixed and free distance road race, time trial, criterium): Unlimited class.  There are no distance restrictions 

3. A unicycle can be ridden if it is smaller than the class in which it is entered (eg standard 20" class is allowed in a standard 24" class race).  However, if a race is over 20km, 24" class and smaller unicycles are not permitted unless exempted by the race director.

4. There is an allowable tire diameter range and minimum crank arm length for each Unicycle Class:

* Table with Unicycle Classes and size limitations *

5. Unicycles must be checked for compliance within their wheel class (wheel diameter, crank length and transmission), with the tire pressure that will be used in the race. Preferably, this check is carried out immediately before the race. Crank arm length is measured from the center of the wheel axle to the center of the pedal axle. Longer sizes may be used. 

Comment 08 Aug 18:34

Sorry, final edit.  I just realised that we had removed all references to standard and unlimited in the last rulebook, despite the fact we keep referring to them both as riders and event directors.  To make it consistent with this, and also easier to follow, I have done the same with this edit:

Comment 08 Aug 19:00

I have just reordered it to put part 6 nearer the top, because the following parts reference this table.  

If we want to keep this section numbering free, then you can just take each number as a new paragraph. 

Comment 09 Aug 02:29

To be honest, the new wording of the rule no longer makes any sense to me. The most important points are:

1. Different championship titles are not automatically awarded in different unicycle classes – this means that, according to the proposed rule, there are no longer two separate categories and therefore no two championship titles in road races! Wasn't that precisely the point of the rule, that there are always two categories in which separate championship titles are awarded? 
2. Paragraphs 2 and 3 are either/or rules, but this is not clear from the numbering, and the unnumbered bullet points are not a good option. For me the information belongs together and should be combined into one sentence.

2. Paragraphs 2 and 3 are either/or rules, but this is not clear from the numbering, and the unnumbered bullet points are not a good option. For me the information belongs together and should be combined into one sentence.
3. According to paragraphs 2 and 3, there would now be different categories for a time trial/criterium under 10 km than for one over 10 km—I thought that for these new disciplines, the categories should be kept the same regardless of the distance? I can understand that we differentiate for the distance in free and fixed distance races for historical reasons – but why do we want to apply this solution, which is not entirely consistent, to disciplines where there was no historical precedent and where we could therefore apply the same rules for all distances?
4. Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to “road races,” which automatically means all disciplines in Section 3 of the rulebook, so why are criterium and time trial still mentioned separately?
5. Paragraph 4 contains information about awards that are not part of this rule, so what is this paragraph doing in this rule?

All in all, I will definitely not agree to the rule, I'm sorry. But such far-reaching changes really need much more time to be discussed.

Comment 09 Aug 05:43

1. Different championship titles are not automatically awarded in different unicycle classes – this means that, according to the proposed rule, there are no longer two separate categories and therefore no two championship titles in road races! Wasn't that precisely the point of the rule, that there are always two categories in which separate championship titles are awarded?  

What do you mean there are no championship titles in different unicycle classes?  We award 29 class and unlimited class expert medals for the road races over 10km.  The current 'old rule' did away with references to standard class/category, and named each class according to wheel size. I'd forgotten about the discussions in the previous rulebook edition. 

2. Paragraphs 2 and 3 are either/or rules, but this is not clear from the numbering, and the unnumbered bullet points are not a good option. For me the information belongs together and should be combined into one sentence.

That's not how it's written- it states that all those classes are mandatory.  It is not either/or.  Combining it in a sentence makes it hard to read.

3. According to paragraphs 2 and 3, there would now be different categories for a time trial/criterium under 10 km than for one over 10 km—I thought that for these new disciplines, the categories should be kept the same regardless of the distance? I can understand that we differentiate for the distance in free and fixed distance races for historical reasons – but why do we want to apply this solution, which is not entirely consistent, to disciplines where there was no historical precedent and where we could therefore apply the same rules for all distances?

This incorporated all the current categories we have in a logical manner.  For the time-trial- this has never been one raced at Unicon, but why should it be different from a road race? It makes sense for anything 10km and less to be ridden on 24" class, and anything over 10km on a 29" class unicycle.   For the criterium- the last one at Unicon 21 was under 10km, and we raced it with 24" class unicycles. 

I had to make an exception for hill-climb because this has just been approved, and there is only the unlimited class (with an added standard 29 award).

4. Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to “road races,” which automatically means all disciplines in Section 3 of the rulebook, so why are criterium and time trial still mentioned separately?

We now have time-trial, hill climb, fixed-distance/free distance road race and criterium.  All of these are technically 'road races', but that can be confusing as it can be taken to mean only the fixed-distance/free-distance road race.

I should have listed this as " For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, the following classes are mandatory for all time-trials, criterium, fixed-distance/free-distance road races over 10km".

Note that I left out hill climb because it is an unlimited class competition.

5. Paragraph 4 contains information about awards that are not part of this rule, so what is this paragraph doing in this rule?

I copied this over from the new hill climb event, because is different to the other road events. 

All in all, I will definitely not agree to the rule, I'm sorry. But such far-reaching changes really need much more time to be discussed.

The old rule was vague, difficult to understand, and does not include our new hill climb and time trials events.  

Can we please have comment from other members of the committee?

 

 

 

 

Comment 09 Aug 06:16

Another edit. Hope this addresses Jan's concerns. I have regrouped the sentences so it's clearer that expert titles will be awarded in 24 class and unlimited (10km), and 29 class and unlimited (>10km).  Also added reference to free/fixed distances so we know precisely what is being referred to.

Comment 09 Aug 06:16

> What do you mean there are no championship titles in different unicycle classes?

The rulebook does not provide for championship titles to be awarded on the basis of different classes (which, by the way, often exist in other disciplines, yet only one championship title is awarded), but only on the basis of different categories/competitions. In this respect, the current old rule is therefore absolutely suboptimal. It would only be clear if there were two separate categories and these were also named as such.

> That's not how it's written- it states that all those classes are mandatory.  It is not either/or. 

Paragraphs 2 and 3 must be either/or rules, as they can never both apply at the same time. However, as numbered in your proposal, both paragraphs must always be applicable at the same time, which is not the case. Paragraph 2 applies to completely different disciplines than paragraph 3 – therefore, the two paragraphs contain either/or rules.

> For the time-trial- this has never been one raced at Unicon, but why should it be different from a road race? It makes sense for anything 10km and less to be ridden on 24" class, and anything over 10km on a 29" class unicycle.

I don't see it that way. For traditional fixed and free distance races, it makes sense to keep the 24 class for historical reasons. For newly introduced disciplines such as the time trial, I think it's absolute nonsense. Why don't we go straight to the 29 class and the unlimited class if there are no historical reasons to have the 24 class anyway?
Ciriterium is supposed to be a short race, but in some cases the exact distance is not clear. A distinction based on distance is therefore not possible here. It would be much more logical to classify this race as “short” and only offer the 24 class and the Unlimited class – as it is suggested in the current rulebook.

> I had to make an exception for hill-climb because this has just been approved, and there is only the unlimited class (with an added standard 29 award).

The corresponding exception for the rule discussed here is already included in the proposal for the Hill Climb Race, so there is no reason to change anything in this proposal.

> All of these are technically 'road races', but that can be confusing as it can be taken to mean only the fixed-distance/free-distance road race. 

If we consistently use the correct terms, it is not confusing.

> I copied this over from the new hill climb event, because is different to the other road events. 

But it does not belong to this rule.

> The old rule was vague, difficult to understand, and does not include our new hill climb and time trials events.

Yes, the rule in the current rulebook does not do that, but my proposal takes all of that into account (the corresponding addition to the hill climb race is integrated into the hill climb race proposal!).

Comment 09 Aug 06:23

> For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, the following classes are mandatory [...]. For other competitions these two classes are strongly recommended.

The wording makes absolutely no sense. Unicycle classes always exist completely independently of any competition; they simply define a specific group of unicycles. What you mean are competitions for specific unicycle classes—i.e., competition categories. However, this is not clear from the wording.
Why do we want to make things so difficult for ourselves and dispense with the categories at this point? They are also named in other rules, and it makes it so much easier to distinguish whether we are talking about a competition category or simply a wheel size. I don't get it.

Comment 09 Aug 07:26

The wording makes absolutely no sense. Unicycle classes always exist completely independently of any competition; they simply define a specific group of unicycles. What you mean are competitions for specific unicycle classes—i.e., competition categories. However, this is not clear from the wording.
Why do we want to make things so difficult for ourselves and dispense with the categories at this point? They are also named in other rules, and it makes it so much easier to distinguish whether we are talking about a competition category or simply a wheel size. I don't get it.

We don't have a definition for a category.  The wording in the current (old) rulebook makes no distinction between the class and category- the class being raced is the category.  Are you proposing we bring back as the standard and unlimited categories, and have classes within these  categories?  We did get rid of the reference to standard, even though we keep using it. 

Comment 09 Aug 07:41

> The wording in the current (old) rulebook makes no distinction between the class and category

And that's a big problem – because it's no longer clear whether we're talking about a group of unicycles or a competition for a specific group of unicycles. But this distinction must be made clear somehow, because in many competitions it is permitted to participate with more than one specific unicycle class. So we can't simply say that the class corresponds to the competition, because there isn't always a separate competition for every permitted class.

> Are you proposing we bring back as the standard and unlimited categories, and have classes within these  categories?  We did get rid of the reference to standard, even though we keep using it.

I don't care what the categories are called, but it must be possible to distinguish between a competition (category) in which titles are awarded and a wheel size description.

Comment 09 Aug 07:47

"Paragraphs 2 and 3 must be either/or rules, as they can never both apply at the same time. However, as numbered in your proposal, both paragraphs must always be applicable at the same time, which is not the case. Paragraph 2 applies to completely different disciplines than paragraph 3 – therefore, the two paragraphs contain either/or rules."

That's because we want to have a 29" class AND an unlimited class (>10km); or a 24" class AND and unlimited class (10km). We don't want the organiser of Unicon to run a competition with only unlimited class (except the hillclimb).

I can change the wording to refer to competition categories:

3. For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, the following classes competition categories are mandatory for time-trials, criterium and fixed/free-distance road races over 10km:
- 29 Class
- Unlimited Class

4. For large competitions such as Unicon or continental championships, the following classes competition categories are mandatory for time-trials, criterium and fixed/free-distance road-races 10km and under:
- 24 Class
- Unlimited Class

I don't see it that way. For traditional fixed and free distance races, it makes sense to keep the 24 class for historical reasons. For newly introduced disciplines such as the time trial, I think it's absolute nonsense. Why don't we go straight to the 29 class and the unlimited class if there are no historical reasons to have the 24 class anyway?

The distance criteria makes more sense to me, while accounting for historical records.  It would seem strange to race a 10km fixed-distance race on a 24 class, then have a 5km time trial on a 29 class. 

Ciriterium is supposed to be a short race, but in some cases the exact distance is not clear. A distinction based on distance is therefore not possible here. It would be much more logical to classify this race as “short” and only offer the 24 class and the Unlimited class – as it is suggested in the current rulebook.

Why would the criterium distance be unclear?  It's basically a free-distance race, so we don't need precise measurements, but we can still measure a rough distance.  Or it may also be run as a fixed distance 10km race (eg Unicon in Montreal and Wellington).  A 'short' distance is meaningless, whereas if we use 10km then we have something to work with.   

"If we consistently use the correct terms, it is not confusing."

I disagree, because now we have the hill climb race, which doesn't really fit with the 'road races' in terms of competition categories.  We also haven't defined terms like 'category' in the way you are using them. 

 

 

Comment 09 Aug 07:58

I'm trying to follow the discussion and the proposal, but I'm having a little trouble. To begin with, I don't see the connection between the title, the background section, and the current proposal.

The title refers to time trial records for the standard category, the background section talks about the introduction of a standard 36" class for historical comparison, and the proposal suggests using the 10 km threshold to choose the wheel size for standard competition.

I'm having trouble making the connection... Are you proposing a standard category with a wheel size based on distance, including for time trial records? Less than 10 km: 24“ / 10 km to xxx km: 29” / >xxx km: 36"?

If so, it's not clearly stated, it's a major change, and I'm not in favor of it. I'm in favor of the standard category being a wheel size regardless of distance: 29". 
Exceptions can be added to this rule: the special cases of 10 km, criterium, and hill climb.

Comment 09 Aug 08:14

"I'm trying to follow the discussion and the proposal, but I'm having a little trouble. To begin with, I don't see the connection between the title, the background section, and the current proposal."

Sorry Simon, the original intention was to update this section, which was rapidly becoming obsolete with new road racing competitions.  It was also to make it consistent with world record keeping, because we only keep unlimited time-trial records.  Given that our competitions have a standard (or 29 class), we need to specify this as a competition category to allow record keeping. 

It evolved into rewriting the section (Jan's revisions).  Jan had brought back reference to the standard class (which was removed in the last rulebook), so I revised it to referencing only the unicycle class in Revision 4, as well as formatting it to be easier to read. 

Comment 09 Aug 08:20

"I'm having trouble making the connection... Are you proposing a standard category with a wheel size based on distance, including for time trial records? Less than 10 km: 24“ / 10 km to xxx km: 29” / >xxx km: 36"?"

No, we are leaving the unicycle classes as they are, no additional classes.  See the table in the current rulebook. 

This is to try and make this section consistent with the new competitions that have been added to road racing events (criterium, time-trial, hill-climb), and allow world record keeping in the time trial for the 29" class.  If you read through the old rule and my proposal (revision 5), I think it should be pretty clear what we're trying to achieve. 

I will put through a revision 6 to address Jan's concerns. Namely, that we need to specify 'competition categories' and the relevant unicycle classes in those. 

Comment 09 Aug 08:22

> That's because we want to have a 29" class AND an unlimited class (>10km); or a 24" class AND and unlimited class (10km). We don't want the organiser of Unicon to run a competition with only unlimited class (except the hillclimb).

Yes, of course, that's exactly how I phrased it in my proposal – but that doesn't change the fact that, as you suggested, paragraphs 3 and 4 can never apply at the same time. Either paragraph 3 OR paragraph 4 is applied, so the paragraphs are either/or rules. That's precisely why I phrased my first proposal here the way I did, so we're going round in circles.

> I can change the wording to refer to competition categories:

That doesn't help if you end up naming the categories exactly the same as the classes. Then it's still not clear whether you're talking about a competition for a specific class or a wheel size designation.

> The distance criteria makes more sense to me, while accounting for historical records.  It would seem strange to race a 10km fixed-distance race on a 24 class, then have a 5km time trial on a 29 class.

Without the argument that the 24 class has always been the standard category in fixed and free distance races, it would probably have been standardized to the 29 class by now. Therfore I think it would make very much sense to have the 29 Class in the Standard category for all Time Trials and not introducing another disciplin that has 24 Class and 29 Class competitions depending on the length. We need to standadise things at one point.

> Why would the criterium distance be unclear?

How do you determine the length of a time-based criterium? For me, it is only clear after the race has finished.
But apart from that, the rules state that a criterium is between 5 km and 10 km long, so there is no need to differentiate based on length. A criterium is always a race with 24 Class unicycles in the Standard and Unlimited Class unicycles in the Unlimited category.

> I disagree, because now we have the hill climb race, which doesn't really fit with the 'road races' in terms of competition categories.

Hill Climb is a road racing discipline just like any other, and if the rules say that there is only one unlimited category, I don't see any room for misinterpretation.

Comment 09 Aug 09:17

"Yes, of course, that's exactly how I phrased it in my proposal – but that doesn't change the fact that, as you suggested, paragraphs 3 and 4 can never apply at the same time. Either paragraph 3 OR paragraph 4 is applied, so the paragraphs are either/or rules. That's precisely why I phrased my first proposal here the way I did, so we're going round in circles."

 Either paragraph 3 or paragraph 4 applies, depending the length of the race. I don't get what the problem is. 

That doesn't help if you end up naming the categories exactly the same as the classes. Then it's still not clear whether you're talking about a competition for a specific class or a wheel size designation.

The class is the wheel size designation.  The competition categories are the specified classes. 

We are no longer using the term standard. I am ok with bringing back the term, but that is probably for another rulebook proposal.  

Without the argument that the 24 class has always been the standard category in fixed and free distance races, it would probably have been standardized to the 29 class by now. Therfore I think it would make very much sense to have the 29 Class in the Standard category for all Time Trials and not introducing another disciplin that has 24 Class and 29 Class competitions depending on the length. We need to standadise things at one point.

We are doing just that- standardising by distance, not by historical measure. 

It would be illogical to have a unicycle class table with wheel size/transmission where each competition randomly assigns their preferred unicycle class.  

How do you determine the length of a time-based criterium? For me, it is only clear after the race has finished.
But apart from that, the rules state that a criterium is between 5 km and 10 km long, so there is no need to differentiate based on length. A criterium is always a race with 24 Class unicycles in the Standard and Unlimited Class unicycles in the Unlimited category.

That contradicts your previous argument that we should be standardising new disciplines to the 29 class.   I forgot we had time based criteriums, but if the rules state it is up to 10km, then the 24" class makes sense.  It would allow track racers to compete with road unicyclists due to the overlap in distance and wheel class.

"Hill Climb is a road racing discipline just like any other, and if the rules say that there is only one unlimited category, I don't see any room for misinterpretation."

The term 'road race' could refer to all the different road events (criterium/time-trial/hillclimb/free/fixed distance races), but equally just refer to either the fixed-distance or free-distance road races.  

Comment 09 Aug 11:00

>  Either paragraph 3 or paragraph 4 applies, depending the length of the race. I don't get what the problem is.

My problem with the numbering is that if either paragraph 3 or paragraph 4 has to be applied, they should be numbered X.1 and X.2 to make it clear from the numbering that this is an either/or rule. That is why I suggested it exactly that way at the very beginning.

> The competition categories are the specified classes.

No, the competition categories determine competitions for specific classes (one competition category may be entered with unicycles from different classes), but competition categories are not the classes themselves. Classes are simply designations for wheel sizes.

> That contradicts your previous argument that we should be standardising new disciplines to the 29 class.

No, it doesn't, because criterium is not a new discipline; it has been in the rulebook for a long time. Time trials and hill climbs are new disciplines in the rulebook.

> The term 'road race' could refer to all the different road events (criterium/time-trial/hillclimb/free/fixed distance races), but equally just refer to either the fixed-distance or free-distance road races. 

Where in the rules is “road races” used when explicitly referring to one of the free or fixed distance races? This should definitely not be the case. Either you mean all road races, or you explicitly refer to one discipline. Anything else leads to confusion.

Comment 10 Aug 07:07

Comment 10 Aug 08:11

> The meaning seems clear to me without needing to state it as either/or.  Either you have an 8km free-distance race, in which case a 24 class applies, or a 50km free-distance race, in which case the 29 class applies.  How else could you interpret this?

It's a matter of form. The rule you're proposing is to choose the standard class wheel size according to the distance of the event. It's clearer and more logical to have only one paragraph. Jan suggests you have a single paragraph that says: <10km => the standard competition is Class 24 / >10km => the standard competition is Class 29.

> The criterium is a new discipline that has only been contested once in the current format. 

It's newer than the 10km, but less recent than the time trial and the hill climb. The criterium was introduced with the 24" class as the standard competition. I believe this is to create a link with track competitions. Personally, I wouldn't be against the criterium standard being 29" class, but I know that not everyone would agree. This type of question may arise in a future revision of the rulebook. For me, the 29-inch category is perfectly suited to short-distance races, and I don't like the idea of introducing a distance to define the wheel size for standard competition.

> This part is not about the rules.  When people say they are 'doing the road-race tomorrow' at Unicon, we know they mean either the fixed distance or free distance race.  We would refer to time-trials as time-trials, or criterium as the criterium, even though they are all part of the road racing section of the rulebook.   It's the same in bicycle racing- these events might all be part of 'road racing', but usually people refer to the TT or Crit as such, rather than calling them road races.

Today, all these disciplines are in section 3 of the rulebook: “road races”. I agree that we can discuss (well, not now, but in a next revision of the rulebook) the fact that road racing includes time trial and criterium, but it might not be a good idea to create new sections for disciplines that have little or no history. I agree with Jan, it is clearer to only write “road races”.

Comment 10 Aug 08:13

> The meaning seems clear to me without needing to state it as either/or.

It may well be that this is clear to you (or to the entire committee here) – but that doesn't change the fact that, over the last few years, I have repeatedly heard from organizers, coaches, etc. that the rulebook is unclear in many places as to which sentences are either/or rules and which are not. Believe me, I have heard some very strange interpretations of the rules.
And that's precisely why I would like to use the numbering system to make it clear where a choice between rules has to be made. This will allow us to tell organizers, coaches, etc. quite clearly in future: “If a rule is numbered X.1, X.2, etc., then a choice has to be made; otherwise, all paragraphs must be applied.”

Of course, I can't tell you yet whether this will reduce strange interpretations of the rules, but I think it's worth a try to address the criticism of unclear “either/or rules.” - but of course, this can only work if it is implemented consistently, otherwise it will only increase confusion.

> We deleted all reference to standard class in a previous rulebook:
https://iuf-rulebook-2018.committees.unicycling-software.com/discussions/159

It was deleted in one rule, but the two categories still exist in a lot of other rules.
And the discussion was by no means about eliminating categories altogether. it was about one sentence and the question of whether all unicycles used must be standard unicycles—which, in fact, they do not have to be (and there is no definition of a “standard unicycle” in the rulebook, so it makes no sense to require that all unicycles be standard unicycles, anyway). But as I said, that is a completely different discussion.

> So Marathon competition ---> standard + unlimited category---> 29 class and unlimited class.  I'm not against this but given the complexity of this proposal I think we should keep this part consistent with the previous rulebook. 

No, your arrows would end with standard/limited and unlimited category - the rest would be only a description of which unicycles you are allowed to ride in the respective categoy. You can ride 24 Class or 29 Class (probably also 20 Class) unicycles in the standard/limited category and Unlimited Class unicycles in the unlimited category. But this classes only describe the allowed unicycles, they are no further subdevision of the competition. There are no awards per Class or additional rankings (if not anounced by the host).

> The criterium was introduced in the 2018 rulebook committee

So for about 7 years now, thats why I wouldn't call it a new discipline.
If a criterium is to be a maximum of 10 km long anyway, then we can save ourselves the distance cut-off, especially since it doesn't work in a time-based criterium anyway. So it would clearly be easier to say that in the standard category of the criterium, a maximum of 24 Class unicycles are always allowed.
In addition, I see the criterium outside of Unicon primarily as an interesting addition to track competitions, which is why I think it makes sense to limit the standard category to the 24 class.

> This part is not about the rules.

We write rules here in the Rulebook Committee, so all we are interested in here is the rulebook. If someone outside the rulebook calls something something else, I don't really care, as long as it is clear within the rulebook.

Comment 11 Aug 03:59

"It's a matter of form. The rule you're proposing is to choose the standard class wheel size according to the distance of the event. It's clearer and more logical to have only one paragraph. Jan suggests you have a single paragraph that says: <10km => the standard competition is Class 24 / >10km => the standard competition is Class 29." --Simon

Ok. I'll rework the paragraph.

"Today, all these disciplines are in section 3 of the rulebook: “road races”. I agree that we can discuss (well, not now, but in a next revision of the rulebook) the fact that road racing includes time trial and criterium, but it might not be a good idea to create new sections for disciplines that have little or no history. I agree with Jan, it is clearer to only write “road races”." --Simon

I haven't created new sections. 

In my proposal, I specified each discipline- TT, criterium, hillclimb, fixed/free distance races.  I avoided using the term 'road-race' to cover all the different disciplines, which is especially relevant if the allowed classes within 'road races' do not follow a logical format (eg by distance)

"We write rules here in the Rulebook Committee, so all we are interested in here is the rulebook. If someone outside the rulebook calls something something else, I don't really care, as long as it is clear within the rulebook." 

All those disciplines come under road races in the IUF rulebook, but we have to account for everyday use. What's the harm is specifying each discipline as in my proposal, rather than calling them 'road-races'?  If we did, then we have to specify that 'all road races except for hill-climb' will have a standard and unlimited class.  And 'all road races except for criterium and 10km fixed-distance' have 29" class as the standard category.    

"It's newer than the 10km, but less recent than the time trial and the hill climb. The criterium was introduced with the 24" class as the standard competition. I believe this is to create a link with track competitions." -- Simon

"So for about 7 years now, thats why I wouldn't call it a new discipline.
If a criterium is to be a maximum of 10 km long anyway, then we can save ourselves the distance cut-off, especially since it doesn't work in a time-based criterium anyway. So it would clearly be easier to say that in the standard category of the criterium, a maximum of 24 Class unicycles are always allowed.
In addition, I see the criterium outside of Unicon primarily as an interesting addition to track competitions, which is why I think it makes sense to limit the standard category to the 24 class." --Jan

The criterium is only in the latest edition of the rulebook, and only raced once at Unicon.  That makes it a new competition

We delayed Unicon20 because of Covid, and at missed two rulebook updates.  Prior to that the rulebook was revised every 2yrs. 

The criterium originates in bicycling, and is not a bicycle track race. It is normally run as part of a larger road racing event, like a stage race.   You do not ride track bikes, you ride road bikes in a criterium.

There is no specified unicycle class in the criterium (3B.6), and is only examples are given in 3D.7.   So an organiser could potentially just run a 24 class and a 29 class. Or just a 29 class.  Unicon 21 picked their criterium classes without direction from the rulebook. 

If we are not using 10km distance criteria to set our wheel classes, then it makes more sense to race the criterium on 29 class rather than 24 class, because you are saying the 24 class only exists in unicycle 'road races' because of historical record.  The criterium is not a fixed-distance race, therefore how fast someone rode their 24 class unicycle at Unicon 21 is irrelevant- you don't need it for historical comparisons. 

It was deleted in one rule, but the two categories still exist in a lot of other rules.
And the discussion was by no means about eliminating categories altogether. it was about one sentence and the question of whether all unicycles used must be standard unicycles—which, in fact, they do not have to be (and there is no definition of a “standard unicycle” in the rulebook, so it makes no sense to require that all unicycles be standard unicycles, anyway). But as I said, that is a completely different discussion.

Agreed. We need a definition for standard unicycle in the next rulebook.  I took it out because it is no longer mentioned in 3B.2, but can add it back in.

Comment 11 Aug 10:53

> Jan suggests you have a single paragraph that says: <10km => the standard competition is Class 24 / >10km => the standard competition is Class 29.

No, that wasn't my suggestion – neither in terms of content nor structure.
In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to have the 24 class as the maximum class in the standard category for a time trial <= 10 km. I think the standard should be the 29 class here - regardles of the distance. And I also didn't get the impression anywhere in the discussion about the time trial rules that anyone except you, Ken, was in favor of making the 24 class the maximum wheel size for time trials <= 10 km. That's why I think it's wrong to introduce this in the proposal now.

My suggestion was as follows (although the wording could certainly be improved – it was about the structure and allocation of wheel classes):

[...] The permitted unicycle classes in the categories are:
2.1 for all free and fixed distance races up to and including 10 km in length and the Criterium in the Standard category 24 Class for riders 11yrs and older, and 20 Class for riders under 11 years old and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.
2.2 for all free and fixed distance races over 10 km in length and Time-Trials in the Standard category 29 Class and Unlimited Class in the Unlimited category.

 

> The criterium is only in the latest edition of the rulebook, and only raced once at Unicon.  That makes it a new competition

This makes it a new race for a Unicon – but the rules here do not only apply to Unicons. Apart from Unicons, the Criterium has already been held much more than once, and it has also been held at competitions before it was included in the rulebook. And if I am not mistaken, the 24 Class was primarily used here as the maximum wheel size in the standard category, which is why this was also included as an suggestion in the rules and implemented in this way at the last Unicon.
I therefore stand by my opinion that the Criterium is not a new competition discipline.

> The criterium originates in bicycling, and is not a bicycle track race. It is normally run as part of a larger road racing event, like a stage race.   You do not ride track bikes, you ride road bikes in a criterium.

But we're not talking about bicycle races here, we're talking about unicycle races. Track racing on a unicycle is fundamentally different from track racing on a bicycle. Road racing events are much rarer for unicycles than for bicycles, while track racing is relatively widespread for unicycles. The participants in track races on unicycles also overlap to a large extent with those in short road races (see 10 km, where an extremely large number of track riders participate in the standard category). A comparison with bicycle racing is therefore of little use here.

> If we are not using 10km distance criteria to set our wheel classes, then it makes more sense to race the criterium on 29 class rather than 24 class, because you are saying the 24 class only exists in unicycle 'road races' because of historical record.

That's right, and if you want a fixed scheme, then I would say that the 29 class must be the maximum permissible wheel size in the standard category – everywhere, in fact.
But I can tell you that this makes the Criterium uninteresting (at least in Germany), and I can also briefly explain why: In Germany, there are hardly any riders who are explicitly road racers, but there are a lot of track riders. These track riders have always wanted races outside the stadium, preferably with a mass start and the possibility of a head-to-head race. In the past, there were often 5 km or 10 km road races in Germany, including as part of the German Track Championships. Unfortunately, it has become practically impossible to close public roads in Germany, so 5 km or 10 km races no longer exist. However, the organizers of track competitions see the criterium as a suitable alternative, as this race can be held in a small space without closing public roads. The participants are, of course, almost exclusively track riders with 24 Class unicycles. These riders found the race at the last Unicon to be a great alternative to the 10 km race and would certainly sign up again at any time – provided there is a category with a maximum of 24 Class unicycles. If the maximum wheel size were 29 Class, most of these riders would probably not participate in the competition.
Of course, we could now stipulate that the 29 class is the maximum wheel size in the standard category, but then the discipline would suddenly become uninteresting for the majority of riders who currently want it to be offered more often.

Comment 12 Aug 17:23

"But we're not talking about bicycle races here, we're talking about unicycle races. Track racing on a unicycle is fundamentally different from track racing on a bicycle. Road racing events are much rarer for unicycles than for bicycles, while track racing is relatively widespread for unicycles."

How is it different?  You go in circles as fast as you can.  There is a bit more drafting in bike track racing, but otherwise it's racing on a standardised track. 

We take all sorts of rules from bicycle and athletics track racing. For instance, the proposal to use the measurement lines for athletics rather than the inner perimeter line for distance.  The Hour record is a bicycle record we adapted to unicycle racing.  I disagree with road racing events being rarer for unicycles- It's easier in most parts of the world for a unicyclist to enter a bicycle road race than to travel to Europe or Japan to race on the track.

"The participants in track races on unicycles also overlap to a large extent with those in short road races (see 10 km, where an extremely large number of track riders participate in the standard category). A comparison with bicycle racing is therefore of little use here."

Would it not overlap with a time trial that is 10km or lesser in distance?  As a road unicyclist, it's not even worth going for a ride less than 10km if I'm riding a 29" or 36" unicycle.

Of course, we could now stipulate that the 29 class is the maximum wheel size in the standard category, but then the discipline would suddenly become uninteresting for the majority of riders who currently want it to be offered more often.

So wouldn't it be great for track racers to have a 24 class in a <10km time trial?  And for road racers to race against track specialists?

Comment 13 Aug 02:09

> How is it different?  You go in circles as fast as you can. 

I have already mentioned some differences in the post you quoted. Overall, I think it should be obvious that our track disciplines are much more similar to athletics than track racing in cycling. This applies to the competition venue, the distances, and the rules applied. For example, in our track races, only a few disciplines cover a full lap or more; in most cases, the distances covered are significantly shorter.

>  I disagree with road racing events being rarer for unicycles

Okay, maybe I have a very biased view from a German/European perspective. But here it is definitely the case that road racing events for unicyclists are extremely rare. If there are a significant number of road racing events for unicyclists elsewhere in the world that follow IUF rules, where, for example, the criterium is offered, then that should of course be taken into account—but I am not aware of such events.
And at Unicon, for example, a large number of track riders took part in the criterium and saw this discipline as a great addition. We would loose this participants if the 29 Class would be the maximum wheel size for the Standard category in Criterium.

> Would it not overlap with a time trial that is 10km or lesser in distance?
> So wouldn't it be great for track racers to have a 24 class in a <10km time trial?

We have already discussed this in detail in the discussion about the rules for time trials – most track riders I know like short road races because of the head-to-head competition, which would not be the case in a time trial. So I strongly assume that most track riders would prefer a classic 10 km fixed distance race over a time trial. I have also heard from many track riders that they prefer the criterium over the classic 10 km fixed distance race because the criterium is more fun on 24 Class unicycle than a 10 km fixed distance race (due to the significantly higher number of turns and the more “interesting” course for small wheels).

Comment 14 Aug 04:11

 "So I strongly assume that most track riders would prefer a classic 10 km fixed distance race over a time trial. I have also heard from many track riders that they prefer the criterium over the classic 10 km fixed distance race because the criterium is more fun on 24 Class unicycle than a 10 km fixed distance race"

It's possible that there is no interest among track riders to race a time-trial, but I think it's too important to leave to assumptions.  Should we set aside the standard class requirements for both time-trials and criteriums (where neither are specified), and just specify it for the fixed/free distance road races? 

If we debate this in the next rulebook edition, will it affect world record keeping for time-trial records (ie 29 class)?  Note that we don't specify unlimited class for the time-trial records, yet we keep unlimited records. 

Comment 16 Aug 05:33

For the purpose of furthering this proposal, I have rewritten it to account for Jan's concerns.  To avoid confusion. the most important thing is to actually define the difference between a unicycle category and class, so I have put in a section explaining this, before the table of classes.

To make it more readable, I have put in paragraph 4, which says that standard and unlimited categories are mandatory for everything (except hill climb).  I have also split the criterium, fixed/free distance class requirements from the time-trial, which I put in a separate section.

I don't agree with racing 29 class for <10km time trials, but because these will be free distance races it doesn't really matter as we won't be keeping records. As someone who competes in 24 class for 10km, it seems really strange to switch to a bigger unicycle for a shorter distance.  It would be of greater detriment to track racers who want to race the time-trial. 

I've taken out the mention of hill climb requirements because it is already mentioned in 3B.2.5

Is this version acceptable?

_______________________________

Comment 16 Aug 05:42

> Should we set aside the standard class requirements for both time-trials and criteriums (where neither are specified), and just specify it for the fixed/free distance road races?

But wasn't the actual origin of this discussion to include the different categories for the time trials in the rulebook? As I said before, during the discussion about introducing the time trial rules, I also had the feeling that the majority would support a standard category with a maximum wheel size of 29 Class and an unlimited category - regardless of the competition distance.

> If we debate this in the next rulebook edition, will it affect world record keeping for time-trial records (ie 29 class)?  Note that we don't specify unlimited class for the time-trial records, yet we keep unlimited records.

Of course it would have – without a standard category with a maximum wheel size of 29 Class being specified in the rules, everything would probably remain as it is now, i.e. only records in the Unlimited category. It can also be assumed that if there are no specifications in the rulebook for a standard category, the category offered in road races will generally be the Unlimited category. Therefore, it makes sense to keep the records in this category.

 

But apart from that, all other votes should be completed today and the transfer of the rules to the Rulebook document will begin so that the control phase can start as soon as possible. And even with your latest suggestion, I still think we are a long way from something we could vote on. In other words, we would need a lot more time to discuss this issue. Therefore we will have to wait until the next Rulebook update anyway.

Comment 16 Aug 05:54

The latest revision takes into account everything you are concerned with.  More importantly, it defines the standard and unlimited competition categories.  I would like to put it to vote

Of course it would have – without a standard category with a maximum wheel size of 29 Class being specified in the rules, everything would probably remain as it is now, i.e. only records in the Unlimited category. It can also be assumed that if there are no specifications in the rulebook for a standard category, the category offered in road races will generally be the Unlimited category. Therefore, it makes sense to keep the records in this category.

Why is unlimited class the default?  It makes the standard category an inferior category.

Comment 16 Aug 06:36

> The latest revision takes into account everything you are concerned with.

That's not true
- Your proposal still makes a distinction based on length for the criterium, for example. But that doesn't make sense, because on the one hand, in a criterium, it may not be possible to assign a length at all (time-based criterium), and on the other hand, the rules already state that it should be between 5 km and 10 km long. So, especially because of the former, it would be clearer to say that in a criterium in the standard category, a maximum of 24 Class unicycles are always permitted.
- In your proposal, paragraphs 5 and 6 are still an either/or rule.
- Formulations such as “the standard category is the 29 Class” do not make sense, as the competition category is not a wheel class designation. It would have to be something like “ in the standard category, a maximum of 29 Class unicycles are permitted”.
- Not using the term “standard” for the category if there is to be added a definition of a “standard unicycle” in the long term is a valid objection, in which case we would first have to find an alternative.

All in all a lot of things to disuss.

 

> Why is unlimited class the default?  It makes the standard category an inferior category.

It's simply what was used in the past. I can't answer why it was decided that way, but when it comes to determining the maximum distance traveled in a certain time, or the shortest time in which a certain distance was traveled, it seems logical to me not to impose any restrictions on the unicycle —otherwise, you won't get the maximum distance or the minimum time. Therefore, it is likely that no restrictions were placed on the unicycle, which corresponds to unicycles in the Unlimited Class.

Comment 16 Aug 07:17

"Your proposal still makes a distinction based on length for the criterium, for example. But that doesn't make sense, because on the one hand, in a criterium, it may not be possible to assign a length at all (time-based criterium), and on the other hand, the rules already state that it should be between 5 km and 10 km long. So, especially because of the former, it would be clearer to say that in a criterium in the standard category, a maximum of 24 Class unicycles are always permitted."

Ok, lets make the criterium standard category 24 class only. We can cross it off in section 5 and add it to section 6:

6. For time-trials, the standard category is the 29 class and for the unlimited category is the unlimited class. For the criterium, the standard category is the 24" class and the unlimited category is the unlimited class. 

"- In your proposal, paragraphs 5 and 6 are still an either/or rule."

I read your version and my version and the meaning is the same.  Do you want me to take out the 'or'?

 

Comment 16 Aug 07:32

If it helps, we can revert and vote on your version Jan, but I really struggle with the wording. 

Comment 16 Aug 08:37

We can't keep making fundamental changes to the proposal again and again and postponing the vote indefinitely. In other committees, some proposals were also set aside because they obviously required more discussion than it would be possible in this round of the rulebook update—I don't think it's fair to the other committees if we keep making significant changes to a proposal here and it's obvious that more discussion is needed. I had hoped that this topic would require less discussion, as most of the proposed things had already been discussed elsewhere, but this is obviously not the case.

Comment 16 Aug 14:25

There is no fundamental change, only covering up a gap in competition. Right now there is no wording in the rulebook that a standard category will be contested in the time trial (or the criterium). There is also no wording on what the standard and unlimited category actually are. 

The proposal makes perfect sense, but it's been blocked at every update.  There have been no other committee members discussing this for some time, so can we please put this to vote?  It can then be decided if this is too 'significant' a change. 

Comment 16 Aug 14:59

Surely this takes everything you have into account now:

1. Riders may use different unicycles for different road events (time-trial, criterium, free/fixed-distance road race, hill-climb), as long as they comply with rules for the events in which they are entered.

Comment 16 Aug 16:07

> There is no fundamental change, only covering up a gap in competition.

Of course it is – if for example one proposal strictly links the maximum wheel size in the "Standard" categorie to the distance and another proposes a maximum wheel size for certain disciplines regardless of the distance, then these are two fundamentally different proposals. If there were no fundamental differences in content and no need for discussion, we could have voted on this proposal over a month ago and would have been on time.

Comment 16 Aug 19:28

The intention had been simply to add the standard class to the TT, which is a new event.  That could have been written into the TT section.  Without it, organisers are free to choose which categories and classes they offer- is that what we want?

I had taken out reference to 'standard' when I looked through the section again and saw that we only defined the classes after 'standard' was deleted by the last rulebook committee.  We went on to discuss categories and classes, as the submission makes no sense until we defined them.   Your competition category (with classes within each category) structure is much better. 

You picked up my mistake in the final draft when I said unicycle racing is divided by category and class (it should be just category)

Also, we increased the scope to include criterium, and as well as which classes should be raced in the standard category 

Sorry I rewrote your draft- it had a lot of moving parts within each sentence. I found it hard to follow.  

Hopefully this version is something we can live with.  Thanks for shortening the review period.  

Any other comments from committee members aside from Jan and myself?

Comment 17 Aug 04:26

As I said, I believe that this rule still needs a lot of discussion before we really have a sensible rule again that takes all content and structural aspects into account. You are certainly right that my proposal was not very easy to read – but in terms of content and structure (with regard to the numbering of the paragraphs), it covered everything that was discussed here and in other discussions.

As I said, I believe that this rule still needs a lot of discussion before we really have a sensible rule again that takes all content and structural aspects into account. You are certainly right that my proposal was not very easy to read – but in terms of content and structure (with regard to the numbering of the paragraphs), it covered everything that was discussed here and in other discussions.

With the new rule, for example, in the standard category, the restriction to 20 Class unicycles for riders under 11 years of age does not apply to the criterium. I think it would have made more sense if this restriction had applied to fixed and free distance races under 10 km and the criterium.
Phrases such as “the standard category is the 29 Class” still make no sense to a non-native speaker. A competition category is not a wheel size – certain wheel sizes may be permitted in a competition category, but a wheel size is something different than a competition category. Perhaps the wording is logical in English, but for me as a non-native speaker, it still makes no sense.
Unfortunately, the structure does not allow us to say “If a rule is numbered X.1, X.2, etc., then a choice has to be made; otherwise, all paragraphs must be applied,” since paragraphs 5 and 6 do not apply simultaneously, but either paragraph 5 or paragraph 6 must be applied.

But anyway, hopefully we will have the necessary time and the committee's involvement in the next Rulbeook Committee to get things in order. 

Comment 17 Aug 05:18

It's imperfect, but better than what we had before.  If we can get this through, it gives certainty to time-trial and criterium organisers until the next rulebook revision. 

"With the new rule, for example, in the standard category, the restriction to 20 Class unicycles for riders under 11 years of age does not apply to the criterium. I think it would have made more sense if this restriction had applied to fixed and free distance races under 10 km and the criterium."

We haven't discussed whether it should!  With the existing rule, anything goes

Phrases such as “the standard category is the 29 Class” still make no sense to a non-native speaker. A competition category is not a wheel size – certain wheel sizes may be permitted in a competition category, but a wheel size is something different than a competition category. Perhaps the wording is logical in English, but for me as a non-native speaker, it still makes no sense.

The competition category would be either the standard or the unlimited. Within each category, different wheel classes can be used for different events (as specified).   This prevents organisers of Unicon/Continental championships from only offering a standard competition, or only offering an unlimited competition (except in hillclimb). 

Unfortunately, the structure does not allow us to say “If a rule is numbered X.1, X.2, etc., then a choice has to be made; otherwise, all paragraphs must be applied,” since paragraphs 5 and 6 do not apply simultaneously, but either paragraph 5 or paragraph 6 must be applied.

The choice is implied.  If you run a 52km free distance race, these are the instructions for wheel classes for the two required categories (standard and unlimited). If you run a marathon, these are the wheel classes required within the standard and unlimited categories.

Comment 17 Aug 05:45

>>"With the new rule, for example, in the standard category, the restriction to 20 Class unicycles for riders under 11 years of age does not apply to the criterium. I think it would have made more sense if this restriction had applied to fixed and free distance races under 10 km and the criterium."

>We haven't discussed whether it should!  With the existing rule, anything goes

However, it does not make sense that in some disciplines the U11 is limited to wheels of 20 Class (for which there are good reasons, as mentioned here in the discussion), but not in other disciplines. That is why Tim had suggested standardizing this, and I had included it in my proposal.

> The competition category would be either the standard or the unlimited. Within each category, different wheel classes can be used for different events (as specified).   This prevents organisers of Unicon/Continental championships from only offering a standard competition, or only offering an unlimited competition (except in hillclimb).

I didn't say anything against that. As I said, my only concern is with the phrase “the standard category is the 29 Class.” As a non-native speaker, this phrase simply doesn't make sense to me—a wheel size is something different than a competition category.

> The choice is implied.

Once again: I am not concerned with the content of the rule; I understand that this selection is included in the rule. My concern is that I keep hearing from trainers and organizers that it is difficult to understand from the IUF rules what constitutes a selection rule and what does not. That is why I attempted to structure the rules in such a way that in future it will be possible to say: “If a rule is numbered X.1, X.2, etc., then a choice has to be made; otherwise, all paragraphs must be applied.”
It may well be that native speakers have no problem recognizing the rules where a choice has to be made, even under the current rules, and it may also be that the problem does not exist to the same extent for all rules—nevertheless, I think we should not simply ignore it when the problem repeatedly arises that people do not clearly recognize where a choice has to be made and where it does not.

Comment 17 Aug 06:52

I agree with Ken. Time trial world records should be recognized in both categories: standard and unlimited.

In my opinion the proposal is ready to vote, if we add the 20“ class for U11 criterium competitors. 

Comment 17 Aug 15:27

As for the discussion on categories and classes, I don't really understand the problem. The table of unicycle classes should be replaced by a table of unicycle categories? I don't see the point of the lower diameter in the diameter range.

As for the distinction between >10 km and <10 km, I don't think it's useful. I think it's useful to specify that the standard competition for the 10 km fixed distance race is 24“. From my point of view (as an unlimited rider), a race of less than 10km is not interesting if it is neither a time trial, nor a hill climb, nor a criterium.

Since the deadlines have been well exceeded, I would understand if Jan decided to postpone this discussion/proposal until the next revision.

Comment 17 Aug 16:13

> The table of unicycle classes should be replaced by a table of unicycle categories?

No, the table should define the different official and unique unicycle classes as it does now.

> I don't see the point of the lower diameter in the diameter range.

But this would mean that a wheel could no longer be clearly assigned to one class. However, the whole point of the Unicycle Classes was to provide a clear size designation for unicycles that can be used in competitions.

> As for the distinction between >10 km and <10 km, I don't think it's useful. I think it's useful to specify that the standard competition for the 10 km fixed distance race is 24“. From my point of view (as an unlimited rider), a race of less than 10km is not interesting if it is neither a time trial, nor a hill climb, nor a criterium.

But what should that mean for the rules, in your opinion? That free distance races < 10 km should generally not be allowed? In Germany, for example, there have been regular 5 km races for a long time, which were very popular with track riders. I don't see any advantage in banning such races altogether. The fact that these races are certainly not a (preferred) race for a Unicon is, of course, another matter (but that has nothing to do with the rule discussed here).

> Since the deadlines have been well exceeded, I would understand if Jan decided to postpone this discussion/proposal until the next revision.

It's a really difficult situation. Over a month ago, I thought we had a rule that everyone would be able to live with and that would incorporate the essential point, namely the two categories Standard and Unlimited for the time trials, into the rules. But now we've been discussing a wide range of issues for several weeks, and I don't think this discussion has come to an end yet, but we definitely need to finalize the votes so that everything can be incorporated into the rules in time.

Comment 17 Aug 18:13

"I agree with Ken. Time trial world records should be recognized in both categories: standard and unlimited.

In my opinion the proposal is ready to vote, if we add the 20“ class for U11 criterium competitors. "

I don't think it excludes it for age group, but needs specifying like with the fixed distance 10km race.  In the interest of not delaying this further, I would prefer not to do another revision. This proposal improves on what we have currently (ie nothing) in reference to criterium and time trial.  In the next rulebook revision we can go into further detail, or argue about wheel classes divided by < 10km > distance.  Although we are supposed to do rulebook revisions every 2yrs, the last one was 6yrs ago. It's best not to have 6yrs where there is no mandated standard and unlimited categories for the TT and criterium. 

For consistency, the rules need to be either in this section, or moved to the relevant section. Currently Hillclimb has the wheel classes specified in the hillclimb section.  That's not important for this rulebook revision. 

As for the discussion on categories and classes, I don't really understand the problem. The table of unicycle classes should be replaced by a table of unicycle categories? I don't see the point of the lower diameter in the diameter range.

We removed reference to standard in the last rulebook revision in 2019, but as Jan pointed out, it is still being used elsewhere.  This rule reintroduces the two categories into this section, so that we know the big international competitions need to have both a standard and unlimited category. The wheel classes for the standard category may differ between different competitions.

So basically: Competition --> standard + unlimited categories ---> different wheel classes for the standard/unlimited categories as specified for each discipline

The current rule is:  Competition ---> wheel classes

Comment 18 Aug 04:47

> No, the table should define the different official and unique unicycle classes as it does now.

What is a unicycle class? Since it's neither a wheel size nor a competition category, what's the point? This table, like this entire section, is a mix of equipment and competition categories. It seems to me that the most important thing is to talk directly about the competition categories. I don't understand why we write sentences such as “the unlimited category is the unlimited class”.

> But this would mean that a wheel could no longer be clearly assigned to one class. However, the whole point of the Unicycle Classes was to provide a clear size designation for unicycles that can be used in competitions.

This is already the case: according to this table, a unicycle that belongs to class 16, 20, 24, or 29 also belongs to the unlimited class.
Furthermore, I don't think it's right that a 24" unicycle with cranks shorter than 125mm should be considered an unlimited class unicycle. Admittedly, this may be marginal, but in a road race where 24“ unicycles are allowed, it would seem preferable to me that a competitor equipped with such a unicycle should compete in the standard 29” competition.

> In Germany, for example, there have been regular 5 km races for a long time, which were very popular with track riders.

No, 5km races should not be banned. I don't know all the 5km races, and I've never participated in any. I've seen that in the Netherlands, a 5km race is regularly organized, but there is no unlimited competition. For free and fixed distance road races of less than 10km, I wonder if there is a need to force organizers to hold a competition for the unlimited class. For the 5km road races organized in Germany, is there an unlimited competition?

Comment 18 Aug 06:22

> What is a unicycle class? Since it's neither a wheel size nor a competition category, what's the point? This table, like this entire section, is a mix of equipment and competition categories.

The Unicycle Classes were introduced some years ago so we wouldn't have to call wheel sizes 20“, 24”, etc., since 26" tires are also allowed in the 24 Class, as long as they have a diameter smaller than 618 mm. The unicycle classes are therefore wheel size designations/designations for equipment. They were never intended as competition categories and should not be used as such.

> I don't understand why we write sentences such as “the unlimited category is the unlimited class”.

As mentioned, such a statement does not make sense, as the Unlimited Class is not a competition category. “Unlimited Class” is a designation for a wheel size/equipment and should only be used in this context.

> This is already the case: according to this table, a unicycle that belongs to class 16, 20, 24, or 29 also belongs to the unlimited class.

That is indeed illogical and should be fixed. That is definitely something we should address in the next rulebook update.

> Furthermore, I don't think it's right that a 24" unicycle with cranks shorter than 125mm should be considered an unlimited class unicycle. Admittedly, this may be marginal, but in a road race where 24“ unicycles are allowed, it would seem preferable to me that a competitor equipped with such a unicycle should compete in the standard 29” competition.

These are indeed further problems. In fact, it seems more logical that a unicycle with a wheel diameter between 518 mm and 618 mm but with cranks shorter than 125 mm should belong to the 29 Class and not the Unlimited Class, since the 29 Class does not have any restrictions on crank length. Nevertheless, for me, a unicycle that meets all the requirements of the 24 Class would not belong in the 29 Class. In other words, the classification should still be unique.

> For free and fixed distance road races of less than 10km, I wonder if there is a need to force organizers to hold a competition for the unlimited class.

But apart from the Unicon and continental championships, no organizer is forced to offer both categories—so I don't see a problem with the rule if a free and fixed distance road race of less than 10 km is not a suitable road race for a Unicon or continental championship anyway.

Comment 18 Aug 07:46

"What is a unicycle class? Since it's neither a wheel size nor a competition category, what's the point? This table, like this entire section, is a mix of equipment and competition categories. It seems to me that the most important thing is to talk directly about the competition categories.

This proposal defines the competition categories as standard and unlimited. In the standard category, competitors are on restricted gearing, so they compete against each other on similar equipment.  In the unlimited category- there are no restrictions- someone could race a 42" unicycle against a rider with a geared 29".    

Within the standard category certain wheel classes can be raced, depending on the competition (eg 24 class for the fixed distance 10km, or 29 class for the marathon).  Within the unlimited category, you can race anything, so a 24 class unicycle can ride in the unlimited category, but obviously wouldn't be competitive. 

The old rule lists classes to be raced in 'categories', without actually defining what a category is. 

***Without defining standard and unlimited as the categories, all competitions we call standard and unlimited are meaningless. ***

 

I don't understand why we write sentences such as “the unlimited category is the unlimited class”

Currently there is only the unlimited class in the unlimited category. 

 However, you could argue that unlimited ungeared class belongs in the unlimited category. So the Unlimited category could have two classes- unlimited unlimited, and unlimited ungeared.   This would make more sense than having 'ungeared unlimited' awards in subsection 3D.6.  I know the proposal to delete section 3D.6 passed (only just), but I suspect there will be a few upset competitors at the next Unicon, racing ungeared 36.  This could be a discussion for the next rulebook. 

Comment 18 Aug 07:52

It looks like the proposal has passed its' review period, but there is no option to put it to vote.  Jan?

Comment 18 Aug 08:54

> The Unicycle Classes were introduced some years ago so we wouldn't have to call wheel sizes 20“, 24”, etc., since 26" tires are also allowed in the 24 Class, as long as they have a diameter smaller than 618 mm. The unicycle classes are therefore wheel size designations/designations for equipment. They were never intended as competition categories and should not be used as such.

Comment 18 Aug 09:26

> It looks like the proposal has passed its' review period, but there is no option to put it to vote.

I don't know what time the system uses as a basis here, but based on the time in Germany, it sometimes takes up to 1.5 days longer for the system to recognize the time as “expired.” It's the same with the votings.

> I don't understand how it's clearer or simpler to define official classes rather than directly define official categories.

The problem arises when unicycles from different classes are used in one category. Without the definition of 20 Class and 24 Class, it would be difficult to explain which unicycles may be used in a 10 km standard competition, for example. Defining the classes makes this very simple: all riders under the age of 11 may use a maximum of 20 Class unicycles, all others a maximum of 24 Class unicycles.

> While it's called "Unicycles," you'd expect the section to be about equipment, mixing up wheel sizes, crank lengths, and whether or not a gear hub is present might suggest the section is about unicycle categories.

I don't understand what you mean. Wheel sizes, crank lengths, and whether or not a gear hub is present or not describe the equipment used, don't they? All of the things listed are characteristics of the equipment, namely the unicycles (which is why the section is named that way), and these characteristics can be used to classify unicycles. That's why “Unicycle Class” seems like an appropriate term to me.

Organizing a competition requires explaining what equipment can be used to participate in the competition, and this is where you can use the unicycle classes.
I admit that it might make more sense to define the unicycle classes at the very beginning of the rulebook, but since they are essentially only needed for track and road races, I think it's okay to simply repeat them in these two sections.