Separate the Junior and Adult Competitions clearly
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
While setting up the proposal for standardizing age groups across urban disciplines for Trials, I came across this overlapping topic:
Since the age group committee seems to lean towards clearly separating Junior and Adult competitions, should Trial follow this?
Background:
Right now, the best overall male and female riders make it to Final. This means that Junior and Adult riders can ride against each other. This is not the case in all other urban disciplines.
This means we would only have one male and one female podium for Trials, no Junior podiums
Is that what we want?
I would argue it would be good practice to separate Junior and Adult, meaning only the best Adult riders should make it to Finals, while the Junior riders Final Rankings will be taken from the prelims.
Using the prelim results should be sufficient, since only a couple of Junior riders have the ability to make it to Finals at the moment, and we do not need harder lines for most Junior riders to find the best ones.
Comment
to be honest, I'm not a fan of this. This means that if a junior is the best rider, there is no possibility to become European or World Champion.
I think that in Competition, the best rider should win. Not the older one.
And if you have the skills to make it to finals, then you're totally eligible to ride it. No matter if you're 12 or 21. Skills rule.
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They would definitely be European or World Champion:
Junior European or World Champion.
This is how almost all other disciplines do it. There is an Adult Championship title and a Junior Championship title.
Only difference maybe: since Trials Finals take a lot of work and time to built and Junior riders usually don't need to one up the difficulty from Prelims, we just take the Final Ranking for the Junior Championship title from Prelim results.
In terms of standardizing age groups across Urban, this would also make sense. In Flatland and Street, we have Junior Championship titles and even if a 14yo rider could beat the best Adult rider, they will not of course be able to become Adult Champion.
But it is absolutely clear to them, that by the time they turn 15, they have their chance at it (and since they might have already be able to win against Adults at 14, their chance to then win the Adult title should be pretty high), but it gives clear expectation, when you are going to rider in Junior and when you are going to ride in Adult, across all urban disciplines.
Comment
I would say that there should definitely be a separation between Junior and Adult. I think the inconsistency about this (non) separation is one of the things that most riders (and outsiders) find strange in unicycling: Why is there a junior ranking/junior final in one discipline and not in the other? Why can a U15 participant become world champion in one discipline and junior world champion in another? I think it would be a big step to finally achieve standardization here - and in many disciplines there is already a separation of junior and adult.
In racing, for example, this separation has been consistently applied in Germany for over 15 years and it is completely normal for all athletes to win a junior title at U15. Once this is established, it is fully accepted by the athletes.
In addition, it should also be the task of the rules to protect children from too much performance pressure, for example. In my opinion, a consistent separation of junior and adult also makes an important contribution to this.
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I want to keep this discussion going in case of the age group committee not finalizing a standardization.
If we do vote for the proposals of standard age groups across Urban, this topic here is the only thing that still would differ from the others.
To repeat my proposed solution again:
- If Junior competitors take part, a Junior title has to be awarded (junior riders can no longer join the Adult competition for Finals)
- a Junior Final is optional
- if there is no Junior Final, the Junior competition is decided based on Prelim results.
If you don't agree with this, what are you against and why?
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I like your proposed solution.
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Agree
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I think especially in the girls, it can often bee that a talented 13year old is better or on the same level than the older generation, like Lea from Austria.
if she has the skill to be part of the final, I don't like the approach that she is prohibited of taking part even if she would win prelims for example.
If a rider is the best in the world, they should get to ride the final. no matter the age.
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I defently do not agree with Christian. Yes it is right that some juniors might have the same level as the aldult (our bodies dont change like mens does) but riding on a high level gives you also a lot of presure. A kid of 13 is defently not ready for that. we have to take the presure thingy sireus because when you grow up it can effect to you. also in other sports junior riders cant go to worldchampionships just because a kid has to be a kid. (in freerunning its even only for 18+) you now take it only to 1 rider (who is even already 15 now so doesnt even mather to her) i do have more juniors in my team who are pritty tallented but for there mental health its defently importend to let them also be a kid and not think about the presure and stuff. I know they already "strugggle" a bid with that so as long as we can keep the hard presure away it would be good. we also did this because we are hoping to not have pushing parands or trainers. (there are to many of does in other sports and its not good for the kids) also if they would joine final trials there is not 1 clear rule anymore and thats why this discussion started Because in all the other diciplines its not an option (maybe muni)
dont get me wrong its super good and nice that juniors are so good but we have to look further then only this moment or that one competition. They live longer then that and mental problems can suck a lot.. (you can find some info about the dutch gymnastics where it all went wrong some years ago..)
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I really feel like sharing my opinion on this topic, beeing a rider whose been competing in Trial Finals consitantly over the last ten years internationally and even longer (as a Junior aswell) nationally.
Bringing in standadization as the main argument for this rule change ist bad for trials in my opinion.
I think the best junior riders should still be able to compete in the proper finals if they have enough points from prelims. I`m 100% with chris on this topic. The best Riders should be represented in the Finals not the best who are older than 15.
Trials is one of the disciplines where excellent technique and ability to read the lines is outweighing the physical aspect by far. Both things junior riders can be on an expert level already.
About 10 to 15 years ago when i was competing in Juniors still we had this huge field of talanted upcoming riders whose level was already so high some of us where able to qualify for Finals on a regular basis. The possibility of making it to finals was a huge motivation for us, worth way more than a junior title. Back than all the juniors qualifing for Finals were a great contribution to the Finals. Also I think thats the main reason which made this fast progression of our loved sport possible, having a bunch of young riders beeing able to push themselves unrestricted.
By bringing in this rule there is a big chance of reducing the general level in Trials Finals. Which not only makes it way harder to build lines in Finals but also contributes to a way less homogenous level of riding which will increase risk of injury for less Final suited Riders then making it to FInals and reducing the entertainment for the audience.
I cannot agree with Roos argument about the mental pressure beeing to high for Junior competitors in Final. In my opinion the mental pressure of riding hard lines with obvious risks is way bigger than than the pure fact that you are competing in finals. A Junior rider having done all the Lines needed to qualify for finals will be able to handle the pressure of Finals, at least that has been the expirience for me on multiple occasions.
If we are too scared obout risks for Junior riders we should rather have their legal guardians give an additional mandatory ok for them taking part in finals.
The Problem with Rankings should be solved by Junior Titles ar determined in Qualification. If a Junior qualifies for finals he also has a chance on the overall title.
Why should the best rider not be the overall champion? That just makes no sense.
As a Regular Competitor in Trials Finals i am also not happy about bringing in Arguments which exclude certain (possibly better riders than oneself) from finals which could give one a benefit in future competition.
So in my opinion please overthink this and let the best Juniors still have the possibility to compete in Finals.
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I can only agree 100% with Roos here: It is for a reason that in other sports a clear line is drawn between junior and senior competitions and in many sports participants are only allowed to take part in senior/adult title competitions after the age of 15 (or even later). It's not about standardization for the sake of standardization, but about the fact that it is generally considered important to take aspects such as mental health and development of children into consideration and if a separation is made for all other disciplines in order to protect children (from their own excessive ambition, that of parents, coaches, etc...) then it simply seems unreliable not to make the separation in a standardized way.
> Trials is one of the disciplines where excellent technique and ability to read the lines is outweighing the physical aspect by far. Both things junior riders can be on an expert level already.
That might be true, but it does not necessarily mean that it is really good for the children if they have already reached such a high competitive level at such a young age. With extensive training, children can also reach a high level in other sports at an early age, but it doesn't necessarily have to be good (and there are many examples that it is not good from other sports).
> In my opinion the mental pressure of riding hard lines with obvious risks is way bigger than than the pure fact that you are competing in finals.
It's (primary) not about the mental pressure that comes from taking part in the final or completing difficult lines, it's about the mental pressure during preparation, during training, the pressure that children put on themselves or that is put on them from outside when it comes to achieving ambitious goals. Age restrictions in other sports are rarely because the competition itself is too “hard” - it's mainly about the way to get there.
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