Include a registered coach in a team sport in the awards
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
In the Basketball Committee it was brought up that it would be very desirable if a registered coach, even if he is not an active player in the team, would be considered for awards and medals. Since basketball is not the only team sport in unicycling, I would like to raise this issue here in the Main Committee.
In general, I think it is only fair that someone who is registered as a coach for a team is also treated as a full team member and is therefore considered for awards and medals like any other team member.
What do the others think?
Comment
I agree. Some teams will have formal coaches and others will not, which is fine. To be included in awards, we must establish the method by which the coach is included as part of the team. Some coaches will be playing on the team while others may not, so this will need to be specified when registering for the competition, to have a correct roster for awards. For teams without a formal coach, they can just leave the "Coach" field blank.
Comment
I'm only ok with this if it also addresses coaches in freestyle also.
Reason: as awards director for multiple Unicons and NAUCCs, I have been asked equal times in both disciplines for medals to be given to coaches. So in my opinion, if the rulebook addresses medals for coaches for team sports (hockey, basketball), it has to be addressed for freestyle also.
But I also think it opens a "can of worms" - what about coaches in any other discipline?
Comment
I think there's two (intertwined) aspects to the question:
1 - What is a coach? (what do they do? Do they provide support at the competition or does support during preparation count as well? Do they need to be registered at the event or just named on the registration form? )
2 - Do we allow each team/individual to have several coaches? What is the limit if there is one?
For example:
If someone has a personal trainer helping them to achieve certain specific goals ahead of a competition, does that count as coaching?
Who would be a coach for Freestyle? a choreographer? someone teaching technical skills? Do we allow several coaches? If a competitor choreographs their own routine (or a team coach is also a player in that team), do they get a medal for performing and an medal for choreographing/coaching?
For Trials finals, competitors are allowed to have a spotter/helper. They provide assistance and can contribute to a good result. Do they count as a coach?
A way of solving the can of worms could be to award medals to coaches who play an active role in supporting the athletes during the competition, but that might lead to excluding people playing a large role (for example freestyle choreographers) and possibly including people playing a smaller role.
Comment
That's exactly it Elise - If the rulebook addresses coaches in team sports it also has to address all those other helper/supporter roles as people will ask and it will place extra pressure on the award director and overall director to enforce a rule that people an interpret differently.
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I think any team (3 or more people) should be able to have a coach so basketball, hockey and group freestyle. Not individuals events like track races, muni, street, freestyle pairs or individuals, road races, etc.
Comment
I would do that for basketball and hockey only, mirroring what's going on in other sports.
In these team sports, coaches have a tactical impact on the game. It is not the case in team freestyle for instance.
FYI: coaches don't get medals at the olympics. But they do get one in many team sport world cups (soccer for instance).
Comment
I think it is definitely important to differentiate between individual disciplines and team disciplines and also to look at what is common in other sports and what is not.
Even if there can be a personal coach of an athlete in individual disciplines, each athlete still wins on their own and is also honored as an individual athlete - I would therefore find it strange to honor a personal coach here and I don't know that this is common in other sports either.
Then there are the disciplines where several participants compete together. I think a distinction can be made here between those disciplines where each individual athlete is primarily honored, such as in pairs freestyle or relays, and those disciplines where the entire team is primarily honored. In the latter case, there are usually more participants in a team than actually compete actively, i.e. substitute riders/players, and I would always count these as part of a team. In these disciplines, I think it would also be justified to include coaches in the awards.
In classic team sports such as hockey and basketball, the coach, as François has already said, has a very direct tactical influence on the game, even during a match. In my opinion, he is definitely part of the team here and is often taken into account for medals and honors outside of the unicycle.
Comment
I agree with the inclusion of Group Freestyle; that's as much of a coached activity as the other sports. Also if we broaden the scope of this it can lead to doubling the cost of awards, and less focus on the athletes. I use the Olympics as an example, in that awards go to the athletes only. But keeping it to the group/team activities is a small impact.
There may be multiple coaches for a team/group, but I think it should be kept to one award. This can be handled with the way coaches register as a part of the team. They can list a head coach, or multiple coaches that would share any titles that may be won. In other words, a gold medal to the three coaches of Team X.
Registering as a coach would be a new addition to Unicon (or other event) registration, so we will have to be careful how we word it so the users understand how it would progress from there. Would otherwise non-riding or non-competing coaches have to register as competitors? My first thought is yes, based on their now being part of trying to earn awards.
Comment
There needs to be a limit to the number of coaches that can register (2 maximum), otherwise anyone and probably everyone will be listed as a coach.
And they absolutely must register as a competitor. Any attendee going for a medal (not related to fun/convention things), needs to be registered as a competitor - it's a cost thing related to ordering medals.
Comment
I am in favor of a limit of one coach award per team. Concerning sharing this award among several coaches, I am not sure everyone would be listed as a coach. For team sports, if one wants a medal, one can already be a substitute that never plays. Nevertheless, putting a limit to the number of coaches per team cannot hurt if the limit is not too small (and 2 seems small). Note that I would be ok with a limit of 1 though, for simplicity.
I would limit this coach award possibility to team sports and group freestyle, at the maximum. I am less in favor (but not really against) for freestyle for two reasons: (1) the coach has no impact during the competition and many/all other disciplines may have coaches that have impact before the competition; (2) it is hard to find the limit: why a group of 9 but not of 8 (large group vs small group), why a group of 3 but not of 2 (groups vs pair), why a group of 3 but not a track relay, etc.
Concerning the registration, the Non-competitor registration should not be sufficient for a coach. However, the cost induced by a coach is not as high as the cost induced by a competitor, and we thus could add an intermediate registration category for non-riding or non-competing coaches. It adds however some additional complexity.
Comment
I would also be fine with a limit of one coach award per team and from what was discussed in the basketball committee I think thats also how it is handled outside of unicycling for a lot of team sports.
For sure a coach must be registered, I would be open for both non-competitor and competitor. I think also the registration fee of a non-competitor sould cover one additional meddal. But I can also follow the arguments for making a competitor registration mandatory and would agree to such a proposal.
For me Group Freestyle is kind of a team sport, also I can follow François and Davids argument, that in contrast to hockey and basketball the coach of a freestyle team has no impact during the competition.
Comment
limit one - great.
If someone is eligible for a competition based medal they absolutely MUST be registered as a competitor.
Without that included in this new rule I am against it completely.
Comment
I agree with a limit of one coach per team and they must be registered as a competitor. There are some riders who register as a competitor and only have one event they enter so this would be the same for a coach.
Comment
It seems we've reached a consensus on the maximum number (1 coach per team) and on the kind of registration (competitor). We still need to converge about which events are concerned.
Again, it seems we all basically agree that Basketball and Hockey should be concerned and that any individual event should not. Personnally I rather strongly disagree with including relay and freestyle pair. I mildly disagree with including small and large freestyle groups. What is your opinion?
Comment
I think hockey, basketball, small and large groups.
Comment
The coach be registered and present at the competition as well as nominated in advance to be eligible for a medal (maybe with the same deadline than adding/removing players?)
Regarding the disciplines, it is tricky. I personally feel that a coach should be playing a significant role during the event to be eligible for a medal, but I admit not knowing much about group freestyle.
I think having the role played by a coach during the event as a condition limits the issues raised by David ("why a group of 9 but not of 8 (large group vs small group), why a group of 3 but not of 2 (groups vs pair), why a group of 3 but not a track relay, etc.").
It might however open arguments about other disciplines: you could argue that a coach could play a significant role for an individual in Trials finals. So we need to clarify whether that is possible or not.
So, that leaves us with:
To be eligible for a medal, a coach should:
- coach riders in a non-individual event
- be registered for the competition
- be present at the competition
- be nominated in advance (by the deadline for changes to the team)
- play a significant strategic role during the events his team participates in
Another questions we need to clarify is whether coaches only get recognized for expert levels (so Hockey A and Basketball A) or for lower rankings too - I don't have strong opinions on the matter but we should clarify it
Comment
I would see the large group in freestyle as a team sport in any case and would find it justified if a coach were also eligible to receive a medal here. The small group is indeed a bit of a gray area for me, as it covers exactly the area between the individual performances and a team.
I wouldn't see the relay as a team sport, because for me a team sport means that the team composition is played/ridden over a longer period of time (e.g. at least one season) and the training explicitly consists of forming a team from many individual athletes who harmonize together and act as a team. In the relay, the composition is often made at short notice according to the individual performances of the athletes, it is about combining the optimal individual performance four times over the corresponding distance, it is not about forming the athletes into a team, it is about optimizing individual performances (and a smooth handover in between). Of course, the coach can have a significant influence with this, but that's not what makes a team sport for me.
Comment
I am in favor of hockey, basketball, and large groups. I think small group can often be formed out of group of friends without the need for a coach. And as others have pointed out it is that middle ground between individual and team events. It can be addressed in a different rulebook session.
Also Relay - agree with Jan. Great points.
As for Elise's point about expert level (A) verses not (B) - I would say expert yes, lower ranking no. Hockey/Basketball A - yes. Hockey/Basketball B - no. More often B tournaments are for fun and have more pick up teams. Plus it makes it a clearer distinction from expert and not.
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I'd agree with all you said Kirsten.
Comment
I agree with Kirsten and Jamey.
In particular:
- team sports level A (hockey and basketball), but not level B.
- Large group freestyle but generally not small group freestyle.
- Not relay.
Comment
Why the differentiation between level A and level B in the team sports? I can understand that it seems illogical for pick-up/mixed teams to have a coach, but not all teams in a B tournament are pick-up/mixed teams. And just because it is possible for teams to register an official coach does not mean that all teams will do so (the price of registration will probably prevent many coaches from registering officially anyway). But I think it would be fair to give all teams whether level A or level B the opportunity to officially register a coach if they have one.
Comment
Very good point Jan. And now that I think about it, I think there are French basketball and hockey B teams that are primarily youth and have a coach. So yes, for coaches for all team (basketball and hockey) that are registered.
Comment
So now we have:
To be eligible for a medal, a the coach should:
- coach riders in a non-individual team event, which includes large group freestyle but not small group or pairs freestyle
- be registered for the competition
- be present at the competition
- be nominated in advance (by the deadline for changes to the team)
- play a significant strategic role during the events his the team participates in
Have we agreed to limit to one coach? I think there are frequently multiple people involved (in freestyle large group, one person may do choreography, another costume design, another music and another trick refinement, but it is very hard to then define which should receive a coaching medal), (likewise with an assistant coach for team sports), so I would advocate limiting to one.
Comment
> Have we agreed to limit to one coach?
I think the majority were in favor of limiting it to one coach, which I would support.
Comment
The medals for coaches would have to be ordered before competition. Costs would be incurred without regard if the coach register or not. Therefore, the budget for it should be from competitor fees.
Teams are not required to have a coach, but if they have, the coach must be able to enter the venues. Therefore all coaches must be registered as non-competitor.
I would agree that teams may register only 1 coach, and that this coach must be present during competition and be registered as a participant (non-competitor or competitor).
As of disciplines: I am OK for Team Sports. Team sports are Hockey and Basketball.
I don't know what are the rules for awards of Hockey and Basketball. How many riders are awarded?
Freestyle is another beast. There are many people involved in the success of the group, but only competitors have active role during competition.
(However I can imagine circumstances when coach has active role in the competition. For example: coach is conductor. Than he/she may be registered as a participant and be active in the group performance. I understand that rules do not require that all participants of the group should be performing on unicycles. Obviously in such circumstance, the couch would have to pay competitor fee.)
I suggest that awards to freestyle coaches may be given on discretion of the organizer. Organizer may award the best technical coach, choreographer, costume designer. And what is important, not necessarily within the winning group.
No for relay.
Comment
> I don't know what are the rules for awards of Hockey and Basketball. How many riders are awarded?
Everyone who is registered in the corresponding team will be honored.
So in particular, if a coach is supposed to register as a competitor anyway, then there is actually no need for a rule change, because he could already do that now and would then be honored as a participant in the team. Theoretically, more than one person could currently register as a coach, as there is no check on who actually played in a team at the end.
I would therefore only see a significantly improved recognition of the coaches if in future each team could register a maximum of one non-competitor as a coach and this person would still be honored with the team.
> I suggest that awards to freestyle coaches may be given on discretion of the organizer. Organizer may award the best technical coach, choreographer, costume designer. And what is important, not necessarily within the winning group.
How is something like that supposed to work? Besides, that's not the core of the discussion - the point is that in team sports (and I would also include the large group) a coach also makes a major contribution to ensuring that a group ultimately acts as a unit (see my comment above: training explicitly consists of forming a team from many individual athletes who harmonize together and act as a team) and this aspect does not necessarily have anything to do with direct influence on the day of the competition, but is an essential and decisive task before the competition for which I find it quite justified in team sports to honor the coach as part of the team that has been formed.
Comment
[Jan] I would therefore only see a significantly improved recognition of the coaches if in future each team could register a maximum of one non-competitor as a coach and this person would still be honored with the team.
Yes. Good point about non-competitor.
As to freestyle, I also agree with Jan that it is preferable to clearly specify that large group freestyle may also register a coach for a medal (leaving to Organizer's discretion is too vague).
A maximum of one coach can be specified in advance and be eligible for a medal:
- coach riders in a team event, which includes large group freestyle but not small group or pairs freestyle
- be registered for the competition as competitor or non-competitor
- be present at the competition
- be nominated in advance (by the deadline for changes to the team)
- play a significant strategic role during the event the team participates in
Comment
For me "play a significant strategic role during the event the team participates in" applies to Hockey and Basketball but not to freestyle, even for a large group.
Why such a vague sentence like "coach riders in a team event, which includes large group freestyle but not small group or pairs freestyle" instead of listing the few eligible events?
Comment
I agree with both of David's statements above. For the first one, the phrasing could be changed to better fit Group Freestyle. Example: "...play a siginifcant strategic or educational role in preparing the team for competition". Alternate suggestions are welcome.
I also agree to offer only one award per team/group, and to tie that one award to a specific person. A team or group can have additional coaches, but may only register one of them for the competition event in question.
Comment
So now we are talking about awarding medals to coaches registered as non-competitors? I'm with Kirsten from 2 months ago, award costs are covered collectively by competitor fees and therefore issuing medals to non-competitors doesn't square with that. It would be the only way any non-competitor could win a medal.
I will easily accept that non-riding team members may contribute enough to be recognized in their team, but non-competitors winning a competition?
Comment
I would like to repeat once again what I have already written above, because I have the feeling that we can possibly stop all further discussion: If a coach is supposed to register as a competitor anyway, then there is actually no need for a rule change, because he could already do that now and would then be honored as a participant in the team.
So if a majority is against allowing non-competitors as a coach, then in my opinion we don't need to discuss a rule change any further, because a coach who registers as a competitor is already honored with the team under the current rules.
Comment
> If a coach is supposed to register as a competitor anyway, then there is actually no need for a rule change, because he could already do that now and would then be honored as a participant in the team.
It is technically true but if I imagine myself as a coach, I would feel more recognized as an official coach (even forced to be a competitor) rather than as a regular player of the team, especially if I'm not able to ride a unicycle (in this case, I would have the impression to cheat/fool/pervert the system).
A side remark: if we all agree about allowing one competitor coach for Hockey A and BasketBall A, we could do that rule change this time and collect opinions and arguments by everybody at Unicon and adjust the rules further the next time.
Comment
David wrote: "especially if I'm not able to ride a unicycle (in this case, I would have the impression to cheat/fool/pervert the system)."
Coaches do not have to be unicyclists. Great unicycle teachers/promoters/volunteers/leaders do not have to be unicyclists. This is a prejudice that has turned away many a hard-working volunteer. I'm sure we all know non-riders who have made great contributions to this sport. If not, I can list some but most would be from back in the day, and possibly not seem relevant (but they are; they helped build this).
To win a coaching award, I still believe the coach must register as a competitor, if only for the practical reason of covering costs for those awards. If a coach puts in hundreds of hours preparing a team, that's a lot of work whether it was on a unicycle or not.
Non-unicyclists who have watched 20 years of Unicon Freestyle competitions should be allowed to judge, if they have the qualifications. Riding unicycles should not be one of them. Sorry, I'm drifting off topic, but this has be made very clear to me by more than one non-unicyclist, for example the host of Unicon 11. And the first USA National Unicycle Meet (1973; Bernard Crandall). The word "Unicon" is from a non-unicyclist who was one of the main organizers of Unicon 1 (which wasn't called Unicon; that came with the second one, which she also helped organize).
-- End rant. :-)
Comment
> It is technically true but if I imagine myself as a coach, I would feel more recognized as an official coach (even forced to be a competitor) rather than as a regular player of the team
But currently you don't explicitly register as a player, you only register as a competitior for a competition and indicate that you belong to a team. So you only register as “belonging to team XY”.
I still don't see where exactly the rules would have to be changed for a coach to register and be considered for the award. A rule change would only be necessary if a coach registered as a non-competitor were also to be considered for the awards.
Comment
I was apparently not clear in my last message. Sorry about that.
First, I did not want to infer in any way that non-unicyclists should be disregarded in any manner. I think all the coaches for unicycle basketball I know are non-unicyclists anyway.
What I was trying to say is that in the current rules, almost nothing is said about coaches (especially in the team sports sections), and thus they probably do not feel invited to register as a team member in order to be eligible to receive a medal. I think that in practice coaches are not registering precisely for this reason (at least). Specifying in the rules that at most one coach may register as a team member would remove this psychological barrier (but not the financial one or other ones) and would prevent a situation in which several coaches are registering as team members of the same team (which is not forbidden in the current rules).
Comment
I agree with David.
Although under the current rules it is probably possible as a non-rider to register as a competitor and sign up with a team and receive a medal, probably few coaches will do that as it seems strange or even "cheating" as David mentioned.
I think adding an explicit provision that one coach per team may register as a competitor and be listed as coach for a team and then receive a medal makes sense. Even for those teams not receiving a medal, it is still recognizing the coach simply by being registered as the coach (and potentially listed with the team, although the rules don't need to specify that).
As to freestyle I think it is psychologically similar (assuming the coach is a unicyclist): even though a coach could register with the large group freestyle, it is not likely as the coach doesn't actually participate. If the coach is not a unicyclist, I don't think they would think of registering as a competitor with the single event of freestyle large group.
I would actually reverse the wording in the rules not to emphasize the coach getting a medal (that is a side benefit) but to highlight that one coach per team/freestyle large group can be officially registered.
Comment
> What I was trying to say is that in the current rules, almost nothing is said about coaches (especially in the team sports sections), and thus they probably do not feel invited to register as a team member in order to be eligible to receive a medal.
Okay, I get your point. Making coaches mor visible in the rules is definitely not a bad thing.
> I would actually reverse the wording in the rules not to emphasize the coach getting a medal (that is a side benefit) but to highlight that one coach per team/freestyle large group can be officially registered.
Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.
Does anyone has a suggestion for how to formulate the rule and where exactly to put it in the rulebook? Then we could make an officiall proposal.
Comment
I don’t think there is a nice place to slot into the start of the rulebook and the best place would be in each rulebook section. e.g. inserting into the hockey section
14.B.3 Team Composition
A team consists of at least 3 players and may have one registered Head Coach.
You could do a similar rule for basketball:
15.B.3 Team Composition
A team consists of 5-12 players and may include one registered Head Coach.
I think for freestyle it’s worth recognizing a head coach as the head coach regardless of whether they ride in the routine or not, but someone with more freestyle background should weigh in there
Comment
I’ll take a stab at a freestyle entry too, just to get the ball rolling:
6.B.6.1.1 Small Group
A small group routine consisting of 3 to 8 Riders. A rider in the group or another competitor who is not riding may be appointed Head Coach for the group.
6.B.6.1.2 Large Group
A large group routine must have a minimum of 8 and no maximum number of riders. A rider in the group or another competitor who is not riding may be appointed Head Coach for the group.
This would perhaps mean we want a definition in the front for Head Coach as well. Something like this could be inserted into 1.D.6:
Head Coach: A leader of a team in Basketball, Hockey, Small Group Freestyle and Large Group Freestyle. A competitor who may or may not be riding in the event but is able to speak on the team’s behalf with Judges and Directors.
Comment
Thank you Tim for your propositions. I'm OK with them. Just one point: I think the consensus is to exclude small group freestyle.
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I like it as well and I would agree to Davids comment about the small group.
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Should i make the proposal as is (without small group) or propose just the 1.D.6 part and expect freestyle, hockey, and basketball to raise their own proposals for the other parts?
Comment
It's probably better indeed to let each specialized committee deal with its own dedicated proposal. For example, in the Basketball Committee, we took your proposal as a basis for the following text:
15.B.3 Team Composition
A team consists of 5-12 players and may include one registered Head Coach. A team must provide at least 4 players on the court to start a game in a tournament.
I guess Jan has a way to inform the Hockey and the freestyle committees, and we would just vote on the addition to 1D.1 here.
Comment
Yes, I can inform the Hockey and the Freestyle committees.
Comment
Are there any further comments on this proposal? If not, I would put it to the vote.