15B.5.7 Making the ball roll on the floor
Comments about this discussion:
Started
As a reminder, the current subsection 15B.5.7. is as follows.
15B.5.7 Ball on Floor
Any player may pick up a ball that is rolling or stopped on the ground. This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs. A player may stop a rolling ball with their hand but shall not intentionally make the ball roll on the ground.
During the last tournament, there were several complaints/discussions about intentional versus unintentional making the ball roll on the floor. In rather frequent situations, a player trying to stop a rolling ball does not succeed and make it roll in another direction (backward most of the times). Even if this was apparently not intentional, it creates a lot of frustration among the players, and it seems that most players would prefer a stricter/clearer rule.
Besides, I wonder if we should use "floor" rather than "ground" (the FIBA rules use 17 times the former and never use the latter).
This would give.
15B.5.7 Ball on Floor
Any player may pick up a ball that is rolling or lying on the floor. This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs. A player may stop a rolling ball with their hand but shall not make the ball roll on the floor (intentionally or not) while trying to do so.
Comment
I think this type of change is good, there are a few considerations
- If the ball is rolling, a player attempt to stop it but the ball continues to roll
- If the ball is stationary and a player attempts to pick it up but causes it to roll (either without lifting the ball off the ground or dropping the ball after lifting it off the ground)
Is rolling the ball a foul or merely a violation?
Also while we are editing this section, do we want to modify "This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called." for clarity? In particular as a player picking up the ball is bent over and may not be in their cylinder so we should probably define the space they are allowed to occupy/move through. Also, does a player not picking up the ball have to move out of the way so a player can try to pick up the ball or is it merely a violation if they move into the space of an already bent over player (this would be similar to boxing out a player who is trying to reach a ball going out of bounds so I think the former should be allowed).
Comment
I think it's a violation and not a foul, if they do not give enough space. If they hit violently the player, it would be a foul, but other rules about contacts may see to that?
Comment
Rolling the ball does not involve a contact between players and thus is a violation and not a foul. You're right Joshua, this should be clearly specified. Also, we should probably start a new paragraph when the topic shifts to stopping and rolling the ball.
During an attempt to stop the ball, the real problem for me is if the direction of the rolling ball changes significantly and/or if the ball rolls faster after the action. In such cases, a violation should be called. If the ball is just slowed down (and its moving direction is almost kept unchanged), I would probably not call a violation in practice. If we all agree about that, we could try to find a not-too-heavy formulation of this precision.
When a player attempts to pick up a ball (whether stationary or not), I would say that it is fine if the ball is lifted off (even slightly, let's say sufficiently so that the ball bounces at least once after that). If the ball is not lifted off, then I would apply the rule about rolling the ball.
Concerning the contacts and the cylinder, I fear it will be difficult to define properly the rules (sometimes overspecifying things is counterproductive). I think the intent of the rule is rather clear and that a referee will be able to judge such situations with the current wording. In other words, I'm rather fine with the current wording and I am not sure to be able to propose a better formulation, but feel free to propose an actual text that would improve clarity.
About forcing the players to move away from a rolling ball, I think I agree with you (if I understood you correctly). I would probably not add this requirement as well, in order to allow an already well placed player to prevent a ball pick up by an opponent, in a similar way as a player may prevent in some particular situations an opponent from saving a ball going out of bounds. However, as soon as a player is bent to pick up the ball, the other players should move away a bit to prevent dangerous situations (no clear definition, referee's judgment).
Tentative new text:
15B.5.7 Ball on Floor
A player may try to stop with their hand a ball that is rolling on the floor. If such an attempt makes the ball roll in another direction and/or makes the ball roll faster, intentionally or not, a violation shall be called.
A player may try to pick up a ball that is rolling or lying on the floor. If the ball is not lifted off during such an attempt, the action is judged as an attempt to stop the ball. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs.
Picking up a ball can be dangerous for the player, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgment, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called.
Comment
Can we modify the last sentence as follows (might still need rewording but I want to convey that a player can block another player from trying to pick up the ball)
If a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgment, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called, however a player not trying to pick up the ball is not required to move in order to allow a player access to attempt to pick up the ball.
Comment
I basically agree with your proposition. This is a bit delicate to find the good wording because a player is not allowed to prevent a ball pick-up, similarly as not being allowed to prevent another player from saving a ball going out-of-bounds, but if by chance a player is already at the appropriate spot (with possibly an appropriate move direction and speed), the player is not forced to move away. I thus like your overall formulation. Nevertheless, the new part, starting with "however", is difficult to read at least for me. Could you please try to modify it so that it is easier to parse/understand for non-native speakers? (Unless I am the only one having such difficulties.)
Comment
"similarly as not being allowed to prevent another player from saving a ball going out-of-bounds" I'm not sure this is the case, as long as the defensive player (not trying to save the ball) respects time and distance, they can move in such a way as to block out the offensive player who is trying to move to save the ball without committing a violation or a foul, this same principle should be applied to a ball on the ground.
Comment
I agree that preventing a ball saving and a ball pick up should be treated similarly.
But I admit that the rule is not clear for me concerning this point: is it allowed to "slalom" to prevent another player from saving the ball?