15B.5.7 Making the ball roll on the floor

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Comments about this discussion:

Started 03 May 11:23

As a reminder, the current subsection 15B.5.7. is as follows.

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

Any player may pick up a ball that is rolling or stopped on the ground. This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs. A player may stop a rolling ball with their hand but shall not intentionally make the ball roll on the ground.

During the last tournament, there were several complaints/discussions about intentional versus unintentional making the ball roll on the floor. In rather frequent situations, a player trying to stop a rolling ball does not succeed and make it roll in another direction (backward most of the times). Even if this was apparently not intentional, it creates a lot of frustration among the players, and it seems that most players would prefer a stricter/clearer rule.

Besides, I wonder if we should use "floor" rather than "ground" (the FIBA rules use 17 times the former and never use the latter).

This would give.

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

Any player may pick up a ball that is rolling or lying on the floor. This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs. A player may stop a rolling ball with their hand but shall not make the ball roll on the floor (intentionally or not) while trying to do so.

Comment 04 May 14:00

I think this type of change is good, there are a few considerations

If the ball is rolling, a player attempt to stop it but the ball continues to roll
If the ball is stationary and a player attempts to pick it up but causes it to roll (either without lifting the ball off the ground or dropping the ball after lifting it off the ground)

Is rolling the ball a foul or merely a violation?

Also while we are editing this section, do we want to modify "This can be dangerous, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. However, if a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgement, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called." for clarity? In particular as a player picking up the ball is bent over and may not be in their cylinder so we should probably define the space they are allowed to occupy/move through. Also, does a player not picking up the ball have to move out of the way so a player can try to pick up the ball or is it merely a violation if they move into the space of an already bent over player (this would be similar to boxing out a player who is trying to reach a ball going out of bounds so I think the former should be allowed).

Comment 05 May 02:11

I think it's a violation and not a foul, if they do not give enough space. If they hit violently the player, it would be a foul, but other rules about contacts may see to that?

Comment 05 May 04:21

Rolling the ball does not involve a contact between players and thus is a violation and not a foul. You're right Joshua, this should be clearly specified. Also, we should probably start a new paragraph when the topic shifts to stopping and rolling the ball.

During an attempt to stop the ball, the real problem for me is if the direction of the rolling ball changes significantly and/or if the ball rolls faster after the action. In such cases, a violation should be called. If the ball is just slowed down (and its moving direction is almost kept unchanged), I would probably not call a violation in practice. If we all agree about that, we could try to find a not-too-heavy formulation of this precision.

When a player attempts to pick up a ball (whether stationary or not), I would say that it is fine if the ball is lifted off (even slightly, let's say sufficiently so that the ball bounces at least once after that). If the ball is not lifted off, then I would apply the rule about rolling the ball.

Concerning the contacts and the cylinder, I fear it will be difficult to define properly the rules (sometimes overspecifying things is counterproductive). I think the intent of the rule is rather clear and that a referee will be able to judge such situations with the current wording. In other words, I'm rather fine with the current wording and I am not sure to be able to propose a better formulation, but feel free to propose an actual text that would improve clarity.

About forcing the players to move away from a rolling ball, I think I agree with you (if I understood you correctly). I would probably not add this requirement as well, in order to allow an already well placed player to prevent a ball pick up by an opponent, in a similar way as a player may prevent in some particular situations an opponent from saving a ball going out of bounds. However, as soon as a player is bent to pick up the ball, the other players should move away a bit to prevent dangerous situations (no clear definition, referee's judgment).

Tentative new text:

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

A player may try to pick up a ball that is rolling or lying on the floor. If the ball is not lifted off during such an attempt, the action is judged as an attempt to stop the ball. If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs.

Comment 05 May 11:16

Can we modify the last sentence as follows (might still need rewording but I want to convey that a player can block another player from trying to pick up the ball)

If a player not currently trying to pick up the ball is not leaving enough space to a bent player in the referee's judgment, a violation against the disrespectful player may be called, however a player not trying to pick up the ball is not required to move in order to allow a player access to attempt to pick up the ball.

Comment 06 May 15:30

I basically agree with your proposition. This is a bit delicate to find the good wording because a player is not allowed to prevent a ball pick-up, similarly as not being allowed to prevent another player from saving a ball going out-of-bounds, but if by chance a player is already at the appropriate spot (with possibly an appropriate move direction and speed), the player is not forced to move away. I thus like your overall formulation. Nevertheless, the new part, starting with "however", is difficult to read at least for me. Could you please try to modify it so that it is easier to parse/understand for non-native speakers? (Unless I am the only one having such difficulties.)

Comment 06 May 16:17

"similarly as not being allowed to prevent another player from saving a ball going out-of-bounds" I'm not sure this is the case, as long as the defensive player (not trying to save the ball) respects time and distance, they can move in such a way as to block out the offensive player who is trying to move to save the ball without committing a violation or a foul, this same principle should be applied to a ball on the ground.

Comment 08 May 15:30

I agree that preventing a ball saving and a ball pick up should be treated similarly.

But I admit that the rule is not clear for me concerning this point: is it allowed to "slalom" to prevent another player from saving the ball?

Comment 09 Jun 08:37

Joshua, could you please answer my last question and/or propose a sentence which is simpler to understand?

The others, please give your opinion on that small remaining point on which we have not fully converged.

Comment 29 Jun 12:22

Could a native speaker try to reformulate this sentence to ease the reading and understanding by non-native speakers please? (My difficulties concern the last part, after "allow a player", which I find difficult to parse.)

"However a player not trying to pick up the ball is not required to move in order to allow a player access to attempt to pick up the ball."

Comment 09 Jul 01:23

I see what you mean, but I as a non-native speaker woud say that the sentence is understandable and I would be fine with making an officiall proposal out of it - if a native-speaker has an idea for improvement the proposal can still be revised.

Comment 20 Jul 04:32

Sorry for the delayed response. I have created a video based on our recent pick up game to demonstrate this issue https://youtu.be/IKVxuqDM0CA. A player is allowed to ride in such a way as to prevent another player as long as they respect time and distance. I have also created two reference videos, a player prevents a player from reaching a ball going out of bounds (https://youtu.be/mysP1VZO1dc) and examples of players fouling while attempting to pick up the ball (https://youtu.be/U-VRn8pkjiY) If you agree with my voiceover (apologies for the audio quality), I propose the following that attempts to balance the need for safety without any restrictions against the other players.

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

Comment 23 Jul 03:00

I could only see the first video (the two others are private). Here are my comments.

At 0:30, I cannot see whether the tire touches the out-of-bound line while Joshua is touching the ball.
At 0:50, Jeremy is allowed to stop the ball (even if it were rolling), but he touches the ball with the wheel, and a violation could be called. In this case, the contact is small, after and almost simultaneous with the hand contact, so I probably wouldn't call the violation.
At 1:24, Lance's foot (or pedal) touches the ball and makes it roll, which is a violation.
At 1:46, Joshua changes its direction to block Lance. It's close to not allowing time and distance but it's ok I think.
At 1:57, Joshua's tire touches the ball and makes it change direction, which is again a violation. If it is not called, Joshua is the last to touch the ball and Joshua's team is entitled to the ball.
Overall, I would perhaps have called one of the three tire-ball contact violations, certainly the third, but maybe the second one.

Comment 23 Jul 03:15

Updated the other two videos to unlisted

Comment 23 Jul 03:21

Also since this is an outdoor court, the ball rolls in less predictable ways, there was no contact at 1:57. The call at 1:24 was probably missed and would be a good call. The play at 1:46 was the main point of this video

Comment 23 Jul 03:51

Concerning the text, I'm uncomfortable with "enters the bent players space" as the interfering player may already be in the bent player's space. We could however consider that it's the bent player decision to bend while there is not enough space. Nevertheless, it raises the following question:

If a player is or comes very close to a ball on the floor (rolling or not) and does not attempt to pick up the ball, shall this player move away from the ball so that someone else can pick it up safely?

In the video, Joshua's way of preventing Lance from picking up the ball is legal because he is sufficiently far away so that another player coming from another direction could pick up the ball reasonably safely. However, I would probably not consider it ok if he were following the ball so closely that no players could pick it up without taking risks.

Here is a copilot-assisted tentative text (only the last three sentences are different/new):

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

Picking up a ball can be dangerous for the player, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. When a player is attempting to pick up the ball, no other player shall enter the space occupied by the bent player. A violation may be called if such entry is deemed by the referee to compromise the bent player's safety, regardless of whether physical contact occurs. Additionally, a violation may be called if a player who is not actively attempting to pick up the ball positions themselves or remains so close to the ball that it obstructs or prevents another player from safely picking it up.

Comment 23 Jul 04:10

Thanks for making available the two videos.

In the short one, I would say that the purple player is preventing too actively the black player to reach the ball. In particular, purple player's arm is out and seems to push the other player. I would probably call a foul.

In the long one about picking up the ball, I agree that the first two situations are fouls. The other two situations, about "preventing a pick up", look clearly illegal to me, and I think most people in the French league would see it as problematic. However I admit I don't know which rule to invoke. (In the first situation, I would maybe consider the purple player to push out with his arm, and I would call a foul.) Anyway, we need to resolve this disagreement about such situations!

Comment 23 Jul 11:01

I discussed with someone else and I watched again several times the third video (Ball on the ground samples). My new analysis would be like this.

I agree that the first three (and not two, I forgot one) situations are fouls.
I understand why the last two situations can be considered no call situations. They are similar to a situation in on-foot basketball where a player A does not want to pick up the ball themselves to avoid a double dribbling violation and thus prevents an adversary from picking it up while hopefully a teammate of A is going to pick it up. In such a situation, I could imagine a legal "fight" like the one in the video. Also, the way the two players enter in contact is quite gentle and symmetric.
In my opinion, we are however not far from some fouls, because the purple player is using quite a lot his arm, and the black player is leaning on the purple one quite a lot.
I would still say that we never have such kind of situations in the French league.

That said, I'm still in favor of the last sentence/rule I proposed. Indeed, in the last situation of the video, the purple player is indeed preventing the black player from picking it up, but he is also preventing any other player from picking it up safely because he is hopping and rolling very close to the ball without paying attention whether there is the head of a bent player close to the ball. I would just modify the sentence like this:

Additionally, a violation may be called if a player who is not actively attempting to pick up the ball positions themselves or remains so close to the ball that it obstructs or prevents all players from safely picking it up.

Comment 23 Jul 16:04

I think the calling of fouls here is not particularly relevant and would be fine with those choices either way (probably good to have a separate set of training videos for that purpose similar to this channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ogdpo6_WUI), since in an actual game the fouls could easily be done by the opposite player or there could be no actual contact.

In an actual game there are more players so it might be the case that no individual player is obstructing all players but two or more players are. I would prefer the following clarifications

1. While incidental wheel contact is allowed normally (FIBA kicking requires intention), if the ball is on the floor any wheel contact is a violation if the ball changes velocity (stops, starts, or changes speed or direction).

2. Players should not delay the game when they cannot gain an advantage

a. If the ball is in motion (and likely to go out of bounds) I think a player obstruct other players from safely picking it up.

b. If a player's teammate is nearby they should probably be allowed to block the other direction from the opposing team but I think it is probably problematic if they are blocking players while that their teammate comes from the other side of the court.

Another proposal would be to modify the clause "If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs." to include a time limit on picking up the ball (5 seconds?).

Comment 23 Jul 16:42

I think that David last proposal is good (this one :

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

Regarding the clip discussion, something to add for me is that in this clip : https://youtu.be/U-VRn8pkjiY?si=RnPSxWRN7LC0zobI&t=42 (Purple preventing the ball to be picked by hoping horizontaly), this is an automatic foul as this should not be allowed at all.

I'm also not really align on this :

"1. While incidental wheel contact is allowed normally (FIBA kicking requires intention), if the ball is on the floor any wheel contact is a violation if the ball changes velocity (stops, starts, or changes speed or direction)."

Because for me, it should be perfectly fine and authorize to position your wheel in the upcoming trajectory of the ball and to let it bounce/stop off your unicycle. This would not be "incidental", but as long as you don't volunterly turn your wheel to "kick" the ball, it should be autorized in my opinion.

Regarding adding a time limite, for "If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs." I don't think it should be necessary, instead, letting it to the referee appreciation make more sence to me, but if we want to be more specific, I would rather have something like "after a few unsuccsefull attemps by both team, the referee will call for a jump ball" the logic being that in some game with less experienced team, there is sometimes only one guy per team that may be able to pick-up the ball, and for those case, I think putting a "timer" for it would juste make it more rush and less successfull, instead, the referee should identify, even more as the game goes, if such player is present in either team, and allow them to make an attemps before going for the jump ball.

Comment 23 Jul 18:02

Purple preventing the ball to be picked by hopping horizontaly, this is an automatic foul as this should not be allowed at all. Hopping horizontally is not automatically a foul (if contact occurs between a stationary player and a player who moves into them it would be foul regardless of whether the player hops, pivots or rolls).

FIBA rules 33.5 and 33.6 should govern that

33.5 Guarding a player who does not control the ball A player who does not control the ball is entitled to move freely on the court and take any position not already occupied by another player. When guarding a player who does not control the ball, the elements of time and distance shall apply. A defensive player cannot take a position so near and/or so quickly in the path of a moving opponent that the latter does not have sufficient time or distance either to stop or change direction. The distance is directly proportional to the speed of the opponent, but never less than 1 normal step. If a defensive player does not respect the elements of time and distance in taking an initial legal guarding position and contact with an opponent occurs, that player is responsible for the contact. Once a defensive player has established an initial legal guarding position, that player may move to guard the opponent. The player may not prevent the opponent from passing by extending the arms, shoulders, hips or legs in the opponent’s path. The player may turn within the cylinder to avoid injury. 33.6 A player who is in the air A player who has jumped into the air from a place on the court has the right to land again at the same place. He has the right to land on another place on the court provided that the landing place and the direct path between the take-off and landing place is not already occupied by an opponent(s) at the time of take-off. If a player has taken off and landed but momentum causes contact with an opponent who has taken a legal guarding position beyond the landing place, the jumper is responsible for the contact. An opponent may not move into the path of a player after that player has jumped into the air. Moving under a player who is in the air and causing contact is usually an unsportsmanlike foul and in certain circumstances may be a disqualifying foul.

Because for me, it should be perfectly fine and authorize to position your wheel in the upcoming trajectory of the ball and to let it bounce/stop off your unicycle. This would not be "incidental", but as long as you don't volunterly turn your wheel to "kick" the ball, it should be autorized in my opinion.

I do not have a strong preference here but the ruling must be explicit about which cases are allowed vs not. In my opinion what you are suggesting violates Fiba rule "A player shall not run with the ball, deliberately touch the ball, kick or block it with any part of the leg or strike it with the fist." but I would be ok to explicitly allow it.

I do think that the rules for ball on the floor are unique to unicycle basketball relative to foot basketball as normally one can dive on the ball and play it so we have more flexibility to define deviations from normal play.

Regarding adding a time limite, for "If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs." I don't think it should be necessary, instead, letting it to the referee appreciation make more sence to me, but if we want to be more specific, I would rather have something like "after a few unsuccsefull attemps by both team, the referee will call for a jump ball" the logic being that in some game with less experienced team, there is sometimes only one guy per team that may be able to pick-up the ball, and for those case, I think putting a "timer" for it would juste make it more rush and less successfull, instead, the referee should identify, even more as the game goes, if such player is present in either team, and allow them to make an attemps before going for the jump ball.

I think there is ambiguity between a skill ability and a practical ability. If the goal is to keep the game moving I would prefer to call the jump ball sooner based on a practical ability, I agree with your concern about rushing the player so what about if no player attempts to pick up the ball for X seconds and reset every time there is an attempt.

Comment 26 Jul 15:55

In the case of a ball on the floor, the hand-ball contacts are quite restricted by our rules. For me, it would be logical that the wheel-ball contacts should be at least as restricted. Intentional contacts with a foot are forbidden by FIBA rules, and the unicycle should be a locomotion tool and not a playing tool in my opinion. I would therefore say that contacts by anything other than the hands on a ball on the floor (rolling or not) is a violation if the ball changes velocity (stops, starts, or changes speed or direction). I will not fight against allowing stopping the ball with the wheel in the same terms than with the hands, but I prefer forbidding it. In any case, we should clarify what is allowed and forbidden with respect to contacts between a ball on the floor and other things than hands.

Joshua, I don't understand what you mean by:

> 2. Players should not delay the game when they cannot gain an advantage

> a. If the ball is in motion (and likely to go out of bounds) I think a player obstruct other players from safely picking it up.

> b. If a player's teammate is nearby they should probably be allowed to block the other direction from the opposing team but I think it is probably problematic if they are blocking players while that their teammate comes from the other side of the court.

Concerning "If the referee judges that no teams are able to pick up the ball, a jump ball situation occurs.", the rule was really intended to games between quite beginner teams in which no players are fully able to pick up balls on the floor. I would not give any timing as situations may vary a lot: nobody is able and nobody tries; few players slowly try with difficulty but fail. This is why I think it is best to let the referees judge by themselves. We could however add "in a reasonable time" after "able to pick up the ball".

In the video, the players get in contact gently and rather before the hopping. In this situation, I don't see what in the rules signifies that horizontal hopping in particular is forbidden. However, the situation looks very akward to me anyway. We never have such a situation in the French league I would say.

Coming back to the discussion about preventing a player to pick the ball, my main concern is the security of the bent players. That's why I want to avoid any situation in which a player not attempting to pick up the ball is close to the ball (whether another player is already bent or not).

Overall, I would so far modify the text like this.

15B.5.7 Ball on Floor

A player may try to stop with their hand a ball that is rolling on the floor. If such an attempt makes the ball roll in another direction and/or makes the ball roll faster, intentionally or not, a violation shall be called. Furthermore, any contact by something other than the hands with a ball on the floor (rolling or stationary) is a violation if the ball changes velocity (stops, starts, or changes speed or direction).

Comment 27 Jul 18:25

I'm ok with this phrasing, I think if the player uses their hands then we should not call a violation if it accidentally or incidentally touches the wheel/pedals/frame (following FIBA guidance around kicking) but pinning the ball between the hand and wheel is a violation.

Comment 31 Jul 15:37

One more issue I see with

> Picking up a ball can be dangerous for the player, so care must be taken not to foul a player that is bent over to pick up the ball. If several players simultaneously try to pick up the ball and make contact, the usual rules about fouls apply. When a player is attempting to pick up the ball, no other player shall enter the space occupied by the bent player. A violation may be called if such entry is deemed by the referee to compromise the bent player's safety, regardless of whether physical contact occurs. Additionally, a violation may be called if a player who is not actively attempting to pick up the ball positions themselves or remains so close to the ball that it obstructs or prevents all players from safely picking it up.

Is that a player who has position but is unable to actually pick up the ball can block all other players from trying as long as that player is actively attempting to pick up the ball. I'd recommend we change "Additionally, a violation may be called if a player who is not actively attempting to pick up the ball positions themselves or remains so close to the ball that it obstructs or prevents all players from safely picking it up." to remove the clause about actively picking up the ball and leave it to the referee to call this violation

here is my proposed change

Additionally, a violation may be called if a player ~~who is not actively attempting to pick up the ball~~ positions themselves or remains so close to the ball for an extended period of time that it obstructs or prevents all players from safely picking it up.

Comment 01 Aug 02:18

Excellent suggestion. I've just made the revision. Thanks.