Definition of "Flow"
Comments about this discussion:
Started
"Flow (20% of score):
Score is given for cleanliness and style of rider during the battle/preliminary."
Let's define what cleanliness means and get rid of style unless someone can clearly define what it means!
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Style is hard to define because it kinda reflects the personality of the riding of a rider so for everyone it can be quite different what they like
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I would even go the other direction and get rid of the name 'flow' in favor of 'style', because what I understand by flow is included in style, but not the other way around.
The definition of style is definitely harder then.
A good style might be a coherent or unique style of riding. So riders who found their look of riding will benefit more than riders who are still kind of trying out what works for them.
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I am not even sure whether we should give any points for this as it's so subjective what is "good style". What is a coherent riding style? Why should a rider get punished for changing how they ride? Or are you hinting at originality here?
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I don't know if and how we can come to a conclusion here...
As a non-flat rider, I would understand flow to mean that someone is fully focused on what they are doing, so much so that everything else disappears and this heightened awareness allows everything to be done with a certain ease. I think it would be easy for the riders themselves to judge whether they are in “flow” - to what extent this can be judged by the judges I don't know. I think the ease with which riders perform tricks can be determined to a certain extent as an external observer - but I don't know if that actually corresponds to the idea of flow in flatland.
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@Marie I feel like the style/flow category is the thing which seperates Flatland from other disciplines and taking it away would lead to some developments which a lot of riders would not be happy with. Of course this is a very subjective category but all art is subjective so its really hard to take that component out. I think what Ian ment wasnt that you get punished for changing the way you ride you would be punished if your riding would feel like random tricks put one after another rather than it all making sense. I feel like originality defenitly a part in style/flow. Maybe it would be helpful if we would define some components which make up the catergory like (originality, cleanliness of riding, tempo, connecting of different elements,how stylish do tricks look). Those points are all subjective still and I dont think you can get rit of that but maybe its a little more consistent if you actually define the components which the style/flow score will be determined on.
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With everything Ben has listed, I would also tend to call the category style and not just flow, as Ian suggested above. It seems to me that there's a lot more in it than just what I would consider to be flow as a non-flat rider.
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I've made a post about this in Urban Unicycle Chat this morning as I think the views of what style is currently vary widely. I think it would be good to give judges at least a few things to consider (like Ben suggested). I personally really like originality - but I am not sure how other riders think about it. I would suggest we wait a little to see what other people come up with.
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@Jan when does the committee close?
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The last day to submit a proposal is the 20th July.
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I've just had a look at the replies to my post in Urban Unicycle Chat and it seems to me that most responses of riders relate to "control" of the rider.
It's actually very similar to what Freestyle calls: Mastery and Quality of Execution. And gives high points for looking effortless, balanced and controlled throughout the entire routine. Maybe this is something we could use in a similar way.
I quite like the word "flow" - so maybe it could be named "Flow and mastery" ?
"Flow and mastery: Riding should looks effortless, balanced and in control." Maybe this is enough, rather than specifying everything that comes with that?
What do you think?
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Just looked at how the other categories are defined, maybe more:
"Score will be given for riding that looks effortless, balanced and in control."
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In terms of this definition, “flow and mastery” would make sense to me.
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As already stated with this definition youre disregading a lot of important aspects for flatland. I dont think just because this works well in freestyle this would work well in flatland. The main separation between disciplines like freestyle flatland and xstyle in my opinion is the way you execute the tricks so I dont see why it should be good the make the judging criteria here more similiar
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@Marie I think I might have mistunderstood you. Can you maybe clarify. Would you want to remove the style component from the flow score or did you just want to figure out what flow means?
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@Marie I think I might have mistunderstood you. Can you maybe clarify. Would you want to remove the style component from the flow score or did you just want to figure out what flow means?
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From what I've seen people commenting in the Urban Unicycle Chat for the definition of "style" (not flow), people were mainly citing what I currently understand as "cleanliness", e.g. no wobbling, clean riding, no sketchy rescue hopping, no long lineups and pre-hops etc. Basically being fully in control and showing high mastery of the skill demonstrated.
From how I understand it, the only thing that people mentioned that was not in that category, was a personal preference for lines in one direction, rather than back and forward (should this be added) and Marco suggesting introducing "hip hop" body language. At least in the chat, nobody mentioned riding the "wrong" unicycle or trick selection as criteria for style (which has happened in the past). Or did I miss something important here?
So therefore, I would prefer to replace "style" with something that is a bit easier to understand (and does not come with the old association of riding the wrong unicycle). Ideally, I would like to see something that, if you read the rulebook, let's you actually improve your riding according to the criterium.
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ok I feel like where talking about a different post in the urban unicycle. First of all you asked what people thought about flow not what they thought about style .Secondly from the responses I read some people said that flow where the things you mentioned before but also multiple people mentioned that there should be more to it. There are of course no "wrong" unicycle tricks but there are certainly tricks which are more hype to watch than others and this should be taken into account. At least when I judge this is large part of the style score and if you disregard that I feel like flatland would turn more into a boring freestyle 2.0. I dont think this is something you can really put into the rulebook you just have to ride a long time to get a grasp for it.
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I think we do talk about different posts. I did ask about style specifically and then asked about a proposal for flow category later. But the post I refer to is this one:
"What does style mean to you? Feel free to shout out just a few key words or a fully elaborate answer. This would be really helpful for us. Particularly interested in opinions of current competitors."
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So what creates a hype for a trick?
Novelty or being rare? What else?
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I think a big thing is suspense if you built up to a trick its way nicer for example if you ride into a trick everyone knows when the trick is coming unlike with hopping where Nobody knows. Also with longer trick there is more suspense if the trick seems failable at any point for example a really long coast can still be failed at the end but if you break up your combo by doing safe tricks in between it gets boring because you cant fail. If the trick just looks award then its not really smith people want to look at.
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Right, this is something that actually explains style more and I would agree.
What do you think about the novelty/being rare one? Would you agree?
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Body posture(multiple things work here but I like for example to seem like youre not making an effort), theming of combos, using speed with intention, having a unique way of riding, curving in a nice way(for example with rolls), appropriate combo length, little akward looking tricks(e.g tricks where youre in an akward looking position)
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Yes I think if you wanna have the best style you should do some nbds
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And would you agree that rather than just cleanliness, mastery could be added to the definition of flow? I think it goes wider than cleanliness. For me, this means e.g. effortless, and some things that Jack mentioned in the post like 1 handed over two handed, smooth transitions into next tricks rather than faffing around, no wobbling in coasts/glides, basically showing that you own the trick.
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Right - so there's more things here. It would be great to pass these via the Facebook forum too to see what people think of them. What does theming of combos mean?
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A combo should make sense in itself and it should not be a random assortment of tricks out in a row each trick should be there for a reason
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I think I should make this clear. I don't want to redefine style. I just want to make the term accessible for riders to understand what it actually means and get a community consensus as far as possible. I want to keep it - but with a few headings that allow new riders to actually understand what it is they are judged on.
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Are you happy to share some of your ideas under the Facebook post and get people's thoughts on it? Particularly those combo ones, which I haven't seen yet, and maybe also your suspense one (which I really like!)
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We might not be able to define it in detail because some things will be individual to the judge, but there might be a bit more than just "style"